ChessPub Forum - I lost my interest after this....

yolocounty Junior Member Offline Yes, I push wood, why do you ask? Posts: 63 Location: Yolo County Joined: 07/02/14 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #166 - 09/27/18 at 20:11:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	My present opinion is that this line offers White nothing after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6! with ...g5-g4 to follow. I nonetheless persist because (a) many players take one of the pieces on offer (knight or bishop) or (b) play the kingside attack no better in this line than after 14. cxd6 cxd6 and "normal" play.


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yolocounty Junior Member Offline Yes, I push wood, why do you ask? Posts: 63 Location: Yolo County Joined: 07/02/14 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #165 - 09/27/18 at 20:06:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am not attempting to resuscitate this thread, merely to add that, speaking for myself, I have been very thankful to have this thread as a reference. I play/allow this line with both colors and I have scored well with both colors in this line largely a a result of the analysis in this thread, which is both more complete and more accurate than published analysis I have seen elsewhere. Kudos, and thank you.


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NegiRefutes Ex Member	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #164 - 04/13/16 at 15:04:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	I was just interested in the line discussed here. Why did 'up and comer' post when no one had posted for two years?


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proustiskeen God Member Offline Hello from Omaha! Posts: 681 Joined: 08/11/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #163 - 04/13/16 at 14:52:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Negi, just out of curiousity, why did you dredge up analysis that's 4 years old?


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Confused_by_Theory God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 662 Location: Europe Joined: 05/13/15 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #162 - 04/13/16 at 11:19:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi. In "Kotronias on the King's Indian MDP I" (Quality chess 2015) (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.c5 g5 14.Rc1 Ng6 15.Nb5 Rf7 16.Ba5 b6 17.cxd6 cxd6 18.Be1) 18...a6 18...g4 Are indeed both covered (see p.127). Have a nice day.


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #161 - 04/12/16 at 19:46:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kotronias covers both 18...g4 and 18...a6 if I recall correctly.


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NegiRefutes Ex Member	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #160 - 04/12/16 at 19:27:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	proustiskeen wrote on 05/15/12 at 21:57:55: I, too, was under the impression that Black was ok with the improvements I mentioned. I'd be thrilled to learn that wasn't the case! Nothing wrong with your analysis although maybe after 18. Be1 g4, 19. Qc2 deserves some attention but Black is fine there. Took be a while to figure it out though. Anybody see anything wrong with 11... fxe4? Also, does Kotronias recommend 11... fxe4 or 18... g4/18...a6? Here is some 11... fxe4 analysis: Download game in pgn format


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yolocounty Junior Member Offline Yes, I push wood, why do you ask? Posts: 63 Location: Yolo County Joined: 07/02/14 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #159 - 04/14/15 at 22:40:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	I note that both Gallagher's old book and Vigorito are willing to consider playing 15. Nb5 a6 for Black, when the consensus here was that the piece sacrifice was just good for white (not, necessarily, as good as the "other" piece sac with 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 bxa5 . . .). Any thoughts? I play the 11.Bd2 Mar del Plata as White and Black, so it is of great interest and I am not clear on White's compensation for the knight. After 16. cxd6 axb5 17. dxc7 Qd7 Black's a8-rook can become active, so the sacrifice isn't as obviously correct?


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gewgaw God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 687 Location: europe Joined: 09/09/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #158 - 02/12/15 at 20:50:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Ametanoitos, I'd be interesting to know, if Kotronias' latest KID-books changed your assessment about this line?

	The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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yolocounty Junior Member Offline Yes, I push wood, why do you ask? Posts: 63 Location: Yolo County Joined: 07/02/14 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #157 - 02/04/15 at 19:24:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Jay wrote on 05/23/12 at 13:15:59: Do either of Vigoritos' books cover the various Hungarian plans/Ne2-Ng3? I have used this against black, but my only post-game tools are myself, Fritz12/Firebird, Easy guide to Nge2 KID (very good, but I'm certain my played variations won't be in it). I do quite well against KID players in my class with it. I suspect that these positions are actually the kind computers are fair/good at, but having the recent concurring opinion/analysis of strong players is always a plus. Vigorito covers it in the second of two volumes. I prefer his approach to Gallagher's, for what it's worth (not much, I'm 2100). Probably should be in a separate topic though.


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up and comer Senior Member Offline Posts: 258 Joined: 10/20/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #156 - 09/12/14 at 15:06:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	proustiskeen wrote on 04/19/12 at 21:08:53: I recently played a game in this line, and had prepared the heck out of it beforehand with the computer, sources, etc. Because I was able to get so much good material from this very forum in this line, I'd like to give back. Special thanks to BPaulsen, who I cite in the analysis. Sadly I didn't play very well, but I did get 23 moves into my preparation. At my level (1700ish) that's not too bad. Here's hoping you find this useful! Cliff notes version: I don't think Shankland's line holds up. Specifically, 24...a6 and 26...Qg6 look like real improvements. Thanks a lot. Stockfish agrees with you, once it gets to a deep enough depth .

	uscf - 2250
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BabySnake Full Member Offline Opening repertoire construction underway Posts: 174 Joined: 10/21/10 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #155 - 11/13/12 at 11:07:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Many thanks Vass, managed to find it in my library!


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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #154 - 11/13/12 at 07:10:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	BabySnake wrote on 11/12/12 at 19:22:07: Mikhail_Golubev wrote on 05/23/12 at 00:37:37: Ametanoitos wrote on 04/20/12 at 09:22:15: Edit: I would also like to add that Golubev's 18...Nxb4 (which is given as an alternative in the book as a footnote) has been refuted also. 19.Qb3 g4 20.Nc6! I must have missed something, do not have time to follow all the K.I.D. developments these days. 20.Nc6 is an obvious move, was analysed a bit in Informator by Lukacs/Erdos many years ago. Seems to be too complex, also for computers, to make such definite assessments. Well, if the engine would have been able to analyse 20 moves ahead here, I would trust it more or less, probably after making some work!? Can anybody remember in which Informator this analysis appeared? Inf 94/p.452 And the game is: [Event "Magyarorszag"] [Date "2005.??.??"] [White "Erdos, V."] [Black "Acs, P."] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [ECO "E99"] [WhiteElo "2454"] [BlackElo "2545"] [Annotator "Lukacs,P; Erdos,V"] [PlyCount "60"] [EventDate "2005.??.??"] I can post the analysis here in pgn format. But, the problem is that I don't know if I would break any laws.. It's hard to live if not a lawyer these days..


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BabySnake Full Member Offline Opening repertoire construction underway Posts: 174 Joined: 10/21/10 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #153 - 11/12/12 at 19:22:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mikhail_Golubev wrote on 05/23/12 at 00:37:37: Ametanoitos wrote on 04/20/12 at 09:22:15: Edit: I would also like to add that Golubev's 18...Nxb4 (which is given as an alternative in the book as a footnote) has been refuted also. 19.Qb3 g4 20.Nc6! I must have missed something, do not have time to follow all the K.I.D. developments these days. 20.Nc6 is an obvious move, was analysed a bit in Informator by Lukacs/Erdos many years ago. Seems to be too complex, also for computers, to make such definite assessments. Well, if the engine would have been able to analyse 20 moves ahead here, I would trust it more or less, probably after making some work!? Can anybody remember in which Informator this analysis appeared?


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Jay Full Member Offline Posts: 212 Location: USA Joined: 04/18/09 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #152 - 05/23/12 at 13:15:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Do either of Vigoritos' books cover the various Hungarian plans/Ne2-Ng3? I have used this against black, but my only post-game tools are myself, Fritz12/Firebird, Easy guide to Nge2 KID (very good, but I'm certain my played variations won't be in it). I do quite well against KID players in my class with it. I suspect that these positions are actually the kind computers are fair/good at, but having the recent concurring opinion/analysis of strong players is always a plus.


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Mikhail_Golubev Junior Member Offline Posts: 56 Location: Odessa Joined: 02/17/04 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #151 - 05/23/12 at 00:37:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/20/12 at 09:22:15: Edit: I would also like to add that Golubev's 18...Nxb4 (which is given as an alternative in the book as a footnote) has been refuted also. 19.Qb3 g4 20.Nc6! I must have missed something, do not have time to follow all the K.I.D. developments these days. 20.Nc6 is an obvious move, was analysed a bit in Informator by Lukacs/Erdos many years ago. Seems to be too complex, also for computers, to make such definite assessments. Well, if the engine would have been able to analyse 20 moves ahead here, I would trust it more or less, probably after making some work!?


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proustiskeen God Member Offline Hello from Omaha! Posts: 681 Joined: 08/11/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #150 - 05/15/12 at 21:57:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	I, too, was under the impression that Black was ok with the improvements I mentioned. I'd be thrilled to learn that wasn't the case!


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #149 - 05/15/12 at 17:11:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/26/12 at 21:40:14: "Huge" holes no. Thanks for that by the way. This line is a "living creature" with many new games to come and you have done a quite good overview. But i have already expressed my doubts about Black's position. Simply put, i am not optimistic. I lost my interest after this!... Didn't we find a way through for Black across a few e-mails (relatively) recently?


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Matemax

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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #148 - 04/27/12 at 05:48:07

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I had a look at the corr. database (ICCF) and strangely enough mostly 18.Ba6 is played (comps first choice, but with mixed results). Then I turned on my engine and it came up with 18...Qb8 (after 18.a4) - diagram.

I am not trying to evaluate 18...Qb8 because I am certainly not so deep in this position. Furthermore I am not as strong a chess player as fluffy and not as strong an analyst as Ametanoitos. But I leave it as food for thought...

Btw: This is my post 1111 - someone for a beer!?

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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #147 - 04/26/12 at 21:40:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	"Huge" holes no. Thanks for that by the way. This line is a "living creature" with many new games to come and you have done a quite good overview. But i have already expressed my doubts about Black's position. Simply put, i am not optimistic. I lost my interest after this!...


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proustiskeen God Member Offline Hello from Omaha! Posts: 681 Joined: 08/11/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #146 - 04/25/12 at 02:41:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	So... now that Dave and Nikos have piped down, anybody see any huge holes in my analysis?


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brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1073 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #145 - 04/20/12 at 14:32:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	fluffy wrote on 04/20/12 at 12:12:08: why would I be scouring the analysis of an unknown (to me, at the time) 2100 player. OTB-rating is something very different from analytical skills. I've known even a 1800 player who was an excellent correspondence player in the pre-computertime and had a much more advanced knowledge of chess than his rating would insinuate. Besides today everybody with a computer armed can make analysis which are largely passing the strength of any topgrandmaster in boardplay. I see no reason to neglect the hours spent by an amateur and willing to share his work. In fact you could/ should see it as a free access to extra computerpower.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #144 - 04/20/12 at 13:47:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have nothing against Mr Vigorito, really. I have heard nice things about him and his works speak for the quality of the man. Probably (or should i say certainly) he spent countless hours making the KID books and sudenly he reads that an unknown guy from Greece criticises severely his work. I may have reacted in a more bad manner.I understand that. And no, if i insulted Mr Vigorito, i didn't do it intentionally and for that i apologise, but if i ever said anything it was about his work, and not about him being "this" or "that". If i act "always so high and mighty" it is something that i suppose many members of this foroum will have a different opinion, but i feel sad that i made him have this opinion because it is something that doesn't reflect my character (language may be, but it is not always an excuse, i am not a great poster when i write quickly!). And i didn't try to "bait" anyone. It is a foroum where all members express thoughts about chess publications for years now and this is what i do for years here. I am happy to be a respected member of this foroum and i never considered myself "famous" by any means. I wrote: "Some parts of Vigorito's book are just bad". I understand that this is "more direct than intented" as Bibs says. Yes, indeed it is. I apologise for that again. The problem with the KID is that even if you write a chapter which is generally good and you make a mistake about not taking into conideration at the time of writting a single line which might prove powerfull, then the whole chapter can be described as "just bad", a phrase that doesn't adress the real issue, that the author has done a good job, but he was "unlucky" or didn't spent the hours needed in this particular line to spot the crucial detail. I and Jacob have received several emails (or posts in QC blog or here at chesspub) of "little details" for the Tarrasch book also. But Tarrasch is not as "sensitive" as KID is. In KID a little detail can kill you. Certainly a beauty of the opening (for which, at present there is no better source for study -objectively- than Vigorito's books and chesspublishing. The correct start for personal investigation.) There is no perfect book and there will never be.


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Bibs YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 2342 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #143 - 04/20/12 at 13:24:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	<WRITING AS A MODERATOR> Hi, Firstly well played to fluffy/Vigorito for not getting too riled and for a restrained response. I suspect, as fluffy suggests, that as with many forumite comments here, Nikos'/Ametanoitos' language is more direct than intended and there is a lack of nuance due to writing in a second language. (Much direct experience of this as a long term expat in Japan, and as a language teacher). Perhaps it might be helpful to keep to specifics as Nikos has just done, rather than vaguer 'lots is wrong' comments. Helpful to give warnings, more helpful to provide specific analysis. Let's keep this civil, polite, mutually respectful, and let's keep it specific.


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #142 - 04/20/12 at 13:20:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm not a moderator of this sub-forum, but I think it would be better if this discussion took place privately. For me at least it's unfortunate to see two authors, both of whom I respect and whose book/books I really like, arguing profusely in public against each other.

	All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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fluffy Senior Member Offline International Master Posts: 250 Location: Boston Joined: 08/01/05 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #141 - 04/20/12 at 12:12:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	finally a concrete example! you have insulted me several times (maybe it's a language thing and it was not intentional), but I do not recall seeing concrete examples other than you do not like the Panno or something along those lines. And if I refused your 'files' a few years ago I make no apologies - why would I be scouring the analysis of an unknown (to me, at the time) 2100 player. You always act so high and mighty because you are such a famous GM-helper, but your writing resume is still just coauthoring a Tarrasch book with a well respected GM. Of course you were slinging arrows before you had even done this... It's a very good book, by the way, although I personally do not like the opening. Ok, I am done! I already regret being baited by you (again!).


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #140 - 04/20/12 at 09:29:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wrote: "A warning for those that intent to follow my advice and give their soul to the KID (a good thing to do if you are ambitious): If you use Vigorito, please check everything carefully. Lot's of good stuff, but some places are just bad." fluffy wrote on 04/19/12 at 15:08:55: I am reminded of Tiviakov's famous review of Dearing's Dragon book where he basically said, 'everything is wrong, but I am not going to say why.' Except that Tivi is 2690 or so... How you are reminded of "Everything is wrong, but I am not going to say why." from my " Lot's of good stuff, but some places are just bad" when i have already given examples of errors from your book is way beyong my understanding. Really... This comparison is just wrong and i could say a bit insulting for me.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #139 - 04/20/12 at 09:22:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	@fluffy: I really cannot understand why you continue to think that i have something personal against you. I invited you at the QC blog to contact me in order to give you the files i made while working on your books. You didn't do that and you continue to invite me to show details to the public about the errors in your book. By the way, i posted some of them in the QC blog but you said nothing. Anyway... I'll give you the most annoying example of a big error in your book. If someone plays the KID using your recommendation in the page 58 against a well booked up player he will go down without a fight from analysis well known from 2003! These are some of the details: Download game in pgn format There is a lot of original work in the 2 books and a very good "ggathering" of all the sources available. So, it is a great starting point for work. BUT, without independent analysis you cannot do something more serious than play the KID and have fun only at trhe local club games. An example is that 17...Rf7 move that provides the solution for Black but in the Vigorito book you'll find it dismissed with a footnote that fails to see the essence of the position. This is where independent work is needed. Edit: I would also like to add that Golubev's 18...Nxb4 (which is given as an alternative in the book as a footnote) has been refuted also. 19.Qb3 g4 20.Nc6!


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proustiskeen God Member Offline Hello from Omaha! Posts: 681 Joined: 08/11/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #138 - 04/19/12 at 21:08:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	I recently played a game in this line, and had prepared the heck out of it beforehand with the computer, sources, etc. Because I was able to get so much good material from this very forum in this line, I'd like to give back. Special thanks to BPaulsen, who I cite in the analysis. Sadly I didn't play very well, but I did get 23 moves into my preparation. At my level (1700ish) that's not too bad. Here's hoping you find this useful! Cliff notes version: I don't think Shankland's line holds up. Specifically, 24...a6 and 26...Qg6 look like real improvements.

	shankland_19Rc6.pgn ( 10 KB \| 395 Downloads )
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fluffy Senior Member Offline International Master Posts: 250 Location: Boston Joined: 08/01/05 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #137 - 04/19/12 at 20:55:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	the Bologan book has many strange errors actually, but I did not point some of them out because in general they were not relevant to my repertoire. Bologan is a great player and overall it's an excellent book, but a sharp-eyed reader may find some odd things. In one of the main lines in the Samisch, he reaches the same normal position via two very common move orders and reaches completely different conclusions! I actually think that this was probably not Bologan himself, but a member of the chess-stars "team".


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #136 - 04/19/12 at 20:53:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/19/12 at 07:29:56: I am looking forward to the chapter on 1.Nf3 h6. It doesn't get a chapter. It gets a foot-note. And yes, it is taken very seriously, I just can't spend much space on it.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2534 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #135 - 04/19/12 at 20:22:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	fluffy wrote on 04/19/12 at 15:00:34: Ametanoitos wrote on 04/17/12 at 22:27:23: A warning for those that intent to follow my advice and give their soul to the KID (a good thing to do if you are ambitious): If you use Vigorito, please check everything carefully. Lot's of good stuff, but some places are just bad. Some of his lines have been refuted more than 10 years ago. I know you love to take shots at me, but if a 2100 is going to say such things, please provide details so I can at least humbly learn from you! This wasn't directed at me, but as somewhat of a specialist in the 6.Bg5 Saemisch King's Indian for White, I didn't think the coverage there prepared Black for a lot of the plans at White's disposal (thankfully for me--I won an important game pretty easily that I later noticed followed your book for many moves, when I chose a different plan that wasn't covered). For instance, I don't recall much mention of the "Yusupov plan" (as Gallagher put it) wherein White does not play a2-a4 at all, instead playing Ra1-c1 and b2-b3, allowing Black to expand on the Queenside with intent of blockading the further advance of his pawns. There were a few other plans that I didn't see covered that have been played by the likes of Dreev and Yusupov. In general I think you're an excellent author and you can't cover everything; just something I noticed because I'm very familiar with those positions. I no longer own your book so I can't really comment on specific variations... Edit: I'm going to leave this post, but I just realized that I was thinking of Victor Bologan's book, NOT Vigorito's. I apologize for the confusion. I'm leaving the post because someone might find it useful.


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fluffy Senior Member Offline International Master Posts: 250 Location: Boston Joined: 08/01/05 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #134 - 04/19/12 at 15:08:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am reminded of Tiviakov's famous review of Dearing's Dragon book where he basically said, 'everything is wrong, but I am not going to say why.' Except that Tivi is 2690 or so...


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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #133 - 04/19/12 at 15:07:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	fluffy wrote on 04/19/12 at 15:00:34: Ametanoitos wrote on 04/17/12 at 22:27:23: A warning for those that intent to follow my advice and give their soul to the KID (a good thing to do if you are ambitious): If you use Vigorito, please check everything carefully. Lot's of good stuff, but some places are just bad. Some of his lines have been refuted more than 10 years ago. I know you love to take shots at me, but if a 2100 is going to say such things, please provide details so I can at least humbly learn from you! And indeed this would be beneficial for those who have the books, and also provide a better way to critique an author (nothing about this particular case, it happens here in general, and I have certainly made such a statement too).


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fluffy Senior Member Offline International Master Posts: 250 Location: Boston Joined: 08/01/05 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #132 - 04/19/12 at 15:00:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/17/12 at 22:27:23: A warning for those that intent to follow my advice and give their soul to the KID (a good thing to do if you are ambitious): If you use Vigorito, please check everything carefully. Lot's of good stuff, but some places are just bad. Some of his lines have been refuted more than 10 years ago. I know you love to take shots at me, but if a 2100 is going to say such things, please provide details so I can at least humbly learn from you!


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #131 - 04/19/12 at 07:29:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am looking forward to the chapter on 1.Nf3 h6.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #130 - 04/19/12 at 00:43:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/18/12 at 09:00:24: Hahaha, very quick answer BP! And it seems that you are ready to challenge Kotronias' statement in you 1.Nf3 book. I am eager to read it by the way. Nah, I don't expect to refute any major opening or conclusively find a += that lasts forever. I do expect to seriously challenge the KID, though (same is true with my approach to all major openings in the book). That's "more than nothing", but not necessarily "white will be winning now, please sign the score sheet so we can save our time". Without giving away details there are two lines I like the white chances in, but one of them will only get brief mention as an additional option for research by ambitious white players. If there's one thing that's certain, it's that even unpopular openings often get quite close to equality.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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WSS Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 273 Joined: 04/22/11	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #129 - 04/18/12 at 14:16:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/17/12 at 22:27:23: If you want to play the KID at a high level these days you have to give your soul to it. The KID is like a beautiful woman. She will captivate you - but sometimes she will break your heart!


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #128 - 04/18/12 at 09:00:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hahaha, very quick answer BP! And it seems that you are ready to challenge Kotronias' statement in you 1.Nf3 book. I am eager to read it by the way.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #127 - 04/18/12 at 08:54:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/18/12 at 08:43:06: Indeed, but he is an outstanding expert on the KID. No doubts there, but still an optimistic fellow.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #126 - 04/18/12 at 08:43:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Indeed, but he is an outstanding expert on the KID.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #125 - 04/18/12 at 02:10:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kotronias is quite the optimistic fellow.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #124 - 04/17/12 at 22:27:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Actually i was ready to do it when i saw G.Jones discovering the way to deal with the fianchetto and after GM Kotronias said to me in Porto Carras during the European Team Championships that "White has nothing against the KID!", but later i changed my mind again. If you want to play the KID at a high level these days you have to give your soul to it. You could beat 2200s 10 years ago when i played this by following schemes and ideas, but today this is impossible as everybody is so well booked up. And as i work on openings for a lot of people i don't really have the time to devote my whole opening study to the KID at present. If Carlsen hires me (!!!) and wants me to prepare the KID for him for a World Ch match i'll study it again for the Black side. But i never see that happen frankly!!! So, expect from me some more low-theory stuff (Queen's Gambits, Nimzos and stuff) A warning for those that intent to follow my advice and give their soul to the KID (a good thing to do if you are ambitious): If you use Vigorito, please check everything carefully. Lot's of good stuff, but some places are just bad. Some of his lines have been refuted more than 10 years ago.


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WSS Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 273 Joined: 04/22/11	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #123 - 04/17/12 at 20:00:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	So, let's recap where we are 4 years after this fascinating thread started. Nikos (OP) has co-written an excellent book on the Tarrasch and often plays the Semi-Slav as Black.... I guess he has not been convinced to return to the KID. Bill


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gewgaw God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 687 Location: europe Joined: 09/09/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #122 - 04/14/12 at 19:59:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe 18.Bb4 is indeed better than 18.Be1. I got the following game: Wagner - Bacrot, Deizisau 2012 with the same Rc6 idea: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 18. Be1 a6 19. Nc3 a5 20. Bf2 Bf8 21. Nb5 g4 22. Rc6 Bb7 23. Bxb6 Qb8 24. Bc7 Rxc7 25. Nxc7 Bxc6 26. Nxa8 Bd7 27. b4 Qxa8 28. Qb3 Qa7+ 29. Kh1 Qe3 30. Nc1 Qb6 31. a4 axb4 32. Na2 gxf3 33. gxf3 Bh3 34. Rg1 Qf2 35. Bd1 Nh5 36. Qc2 Qh4 37. a5 b3 38. Qxb3 Ng3+ 0-1

	The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #121 - 04/14/12 at 19:35:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	I notice that Panczyk and Ilczuk considered it (with an exclam for 20. a4) += in their 2009 book.


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Kowl Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 63 Joined: 10/28/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #120 - 04/14/12 at 19:16:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	What do we think of Shankland's 19.Rc6 Ne8 20.a4 - just good for white? I have 5 games from this position. 3 white wins, 2 draws. Download game in pgn format


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up and comer Senior Member Offline Posts: 258 Joined: 10/20/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #119 - 03/23/12 at 11:52:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	You know, there hasnt been much (I didnt see any when I went over this thread) discussion on 18. Bb5 19. Rc6 20. a4 with the idea of saccing the exchange if black threatens with Bd7. I have no idea how I should respond to it as black, and haven't lost a blitz game with it as white. Ive seen a GM and a few FMs play it with complete success as white, I'd like to know how to hold against it.

	uscf - 2250
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #118 - 03/12/12 at 10:07:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	First of all White usually plays Rc4 instead of Rc3 in order to force Black to spent a move on ...h5 if he wants to play ...g4. Also, when White plays Bf2 there is the move Rc6 (with the threat Bxb6) to consider. That's why i'd probably go for 21.Bf2 (instead of 21.Rc3 or 21.Rc4) like the game Gyimesi-Polzin, 2010 (analysed by Vigorito in chesspublishing). In general i don't trust this line for Black....


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buffos YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 39 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #117 - 02/26/12 at 11:14:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi! after a long time I was wondering why not after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cd6 cd6 18. Be1 a6 19. Nc3 a5 20. Nb5 Bf8 21. Rc3 g4 22. Qc2 not gf3 but go all in with 22...g3!? 23. hg3 Nh5 24. gxf4 exf4 without fearing 25. Nc7 Rb8 26. Ne6 (this is the idea isnt it?) Be6 27. dxe6 Rg7 28. Qb3 Qg5 (simply go for the king. material is irrelevant here) 29. e7+ Kh8 30. exf8=Q Nxf8 31. Rf2 Ng3 32. Nxf4 Qxf4 and although the comp says = i am not sure if in those thousand of variations black may not find a win and whats more its not a position to play OTB Another funny variation, that says that white's position is very dangerous is 25. Bf2 Bd7 26. Nc7 Nh4! 27. Bh4 Qh4 28. Qa8 Rg7 29. Ne1 Rg6! and now white has to rescue himself with the stunning Rc8! There are many side variations of course but the general idea is the same. Play towards the king and the evaluation changes in MOST cases. I really like the g3 approach more. Its an all in approach, that i don't think white would appreciate.


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OrangeCounty Full Member Offline You played that like it was a good move! Posts: 171 Joined: 05/26/10	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #116 - 02/21/12 at 18:18:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 02/14/12 at 22:50:04: Can you be a bit more specific? It seems that ...Kh8 is correct only after Bd2. Also there is no major point in delaying ...f5 as it is a move that has to be played anyway, but Kh8 is a move that will be played only after Bd2. So, if White sees ...Kh8 before he moves his Bc1, then he plays Be3 as against Be3 the ...Kh8 system doesn't equalise according to my knowledge. But maybe i didn't understood well your point about the move order. 1. Your point about Bd2 is well taken. It answers my question. 2. Maybe 11 Be3 Ng8 12 c5 (other moves are possible, e.g. f2-f3) Bh6!? is an idea, planning to contest the Queenside and hold f7-f5 in reserve? Given that the Shirov plan is not trying terribly hard to mate White anyway, at least initially, maybe it makes sense to exchange the KID bishop. Can Black just hunker down, attempt to trade major pieces (e.g. on the c-file), and look for winning chances in an eventual B vs. good N ending? If 12 f3 Bh6 13 Bf2, maybe Black can play ...c6 and open the c-file because c1 is covered.


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saubhikr Senior Member Offline Chess is a cruel game but I still love it Posts: 332 Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA Joined: 10/29/06 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #115 - 02/16/12 at 01:32:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 02/15/12 at 14:13:28: RivertonKnight wrote on 02/15/12 at 12:35:48: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. f3 I have a thought here after either 11 ...f4 or 11 ...Kh8 and maybe even after 11 ...Nf6, can White play with the idea of Kh1, Rg1, Bf1, Bd2-Be1-Bf2 with b4 as needed and then pursue the queenside. Is there a mating attack I'm missing, because it seems to me White can shore up his kingside and play on the queenside at his leisure? And possibly look for kingside breaks of his own. Cheers, Allan If in doubt choose the flexible approach with Black - in this case either ...Nf6 or ...Kh8. You may get a chance to take on e4 or also to counterattack White's centre with ...c7-c6. If you play ...f4 too early you are restricted to one plan and if White hinders that one (the attack on his king) then it's usually curtains for Black in the Kingsindian. After black's ...f5, if white has played f3 what extra option black gets if he keeps the tension rather than ...f4? fxe whill be followed by f3 and I do not see it giving anything substantial to black. White has more space in queenside and kingisde will now become equally controlled and black's dark square bishop is definitely the worst piece on the board.


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #114 - 02/15/12 at 14:13:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	RivertonKnight wrote on 02/15/12 at 12:35:48: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. f3 I have a thought here after either 11 ...f4 or 11 ...Kh8 and maybe even after 11 ...Nf6, can White play with the idea of Kh1, Rg1, Bf1, Bd2-Be1-Bf2 with b4 as needed and then pursue the queenside. Is there a mating attack I'm missing, because it seems to me White can shore up his kingside and play on the queenside at his leisure? And possibly look for kingside breaks of his own. Cheers, Allan If in doubt choose the flexible approach with Black - in this case either ...Nf6 or ...Kh8. You may get a chance to take on e4 or also to counterattack White's centre with ...c7-c6. If you play ...f4 too early you are restricted to one plan and if White hinders that one (the attack on his king) then it's usually curtains for Black in the Kingsindian.


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RivertonKnight Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 73 Joined: 01/30/09	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #113 - 02/15/12 at 12:35:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. f3 I have a thought here after either 11 ...f4 or 11 ...Kh8 and maybe even after 11 ...Nf6, can White play with the idea of Kh1, Rg1, Bf1, Bd2-Be1-Bf2 with b4 as needed and then pursue the queenside. Is there a mating attack I'm missing, because it seems to me White can shore up his kingside and play on the queenside at his leisure? And possibly look for kingside breaks of his own. Cheers, Allan


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #112 - 02/14/12 at 22:50:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Can you be a bit more specific? It seems that ...Kh8 is correct only after Bd2. Also there is no major point in delaying ...f5 as it is a move that has to be played anyway, but Kh8 is a move that will be played only after Bd2. So, if White sees ...Kh8 before he moves his Bc1, then he plays Be3 as against Be3 the ...Kh8 system doesn't equalise according to my knowledge. But maybe i didn't understood well your point about the move order.


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OrangeCounty Full Member Offline You played that like it was a good move! Posts: 171 Joined: 05/26/10	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #111 - 02/14/12 at 21:59:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bd2 Taking this move order as the standard one to reach this position. If Black intends to redeploy his knight as in the Shirov DVD system advocated (here) by Amen, is there any reason to rush with ...f7-f5? It doesn't force f2-f3, obviously, since the alternative move order 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 is available, and Black has then committed to Nf6. So Papageno's move order point below seems right, if black is looking to play the Bologan/Shirov, rather than Vigorito, line. So why not 10...Kh8, holding out the option of playing the knight to g8 and h6 (or theoretically f6) before advancing on the kingside? The idea appears to have been played by Monika Socko in 2006, but her opponent chose the (not challenging) 11. Bd2.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #110 - 02/09/12 at 15:39:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	I meant that 12...Kh8 is Black's best move if he wants to play the Lanka/Shirov/Bologan system and White tries to "move order him" by playing 11.f3 intead of 11.Bd2. This is what we discussed in this thread some pages ago. Black can also play 11.f3 f4 12.Bd2 Kh8 13.Rc1 c5!? i think. If you want to play "Vigorito's" ...Nf6 systems then it is fine i guess. I just like the Lanka system better at present. Maybe i'll change my mind though! No promises!


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saubhikr Senior Member Offline Chess is a cruel game but I still love it Posts: 332 Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA Joined: 10/29/06 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #109 - 02/09/12 at 12:04:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Come on !! I had this exact question with Bologan's book (...Kh8) in one hand and Vigorito's book (...f4) on computer. After a lot of deliberation, I chose f4 as I literally learnt KID by following Vigorito's lectures in Chesslecture.com. Took me some intense study to pick it up. And now you are saying Kh8 is the best move !!


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #108 - 02/09/12 at 10:19:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Going back to a discussion we had about the Shirov/Lanka/Bologan ...Kh8 plan, i'd like to mention that after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bd2 the correct reply is 12...Kh8! 13. Rc1 h5 followed by the usual ...g5-Ng8-Nh6 and when White is ready to go to c7 then Nd7-Nf6-Ne8 as Shirov shows in his KID DVD. I'd certainly prefer this, than having to defend the "Banikas" line, althought it seems that Black is OK there. Maybe we have to wait for Kotronias' GM Rep books for deep analysis in this line...


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #107 - 01/30/12 at 02:44:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Glad you like - and I generally agree. The ...a6/...a5 plan is the major try advocated by engines, but isn't particularly in line with the demands of the position. I don't think it's Black's best, at least not at the current time.


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OrangeCounty Full Member Offline You played that like it was a good move! Posts: 171 Joined: 05/26/10	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #106 - 11/11/11 at 17:11:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'd be interested to see TonyRo's analysis of 18...g4 (I agree and am impressed by that analysis, having spent some time trying to break it) tested in some serious games. I'm going to look at 21. Na3 tonight (after 18...g4 19. Nb4 a6 20 Nc6 Qf8), but I do not at this point understand Black's enthusiasm for 18...a6, 19...a5, when the Nb5 being on b5 rather than c3 enables the immediate ...g4. There are only half a million lines where Black tries to find waiting moves to let White play Nb5 so he can play ...g4 without preparation.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #105 - 11/10/11 at 19:08:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	The mentioned Banikas game Download game in pgn format

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #104 - 11/08/11 at 18:59:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello. I am at Chalkidiki as a coach and i watch the games daily. Banikas has worked the line thoroughly and probably together with Kotronias (the Greek team captain) and it seems that they have found no problems for Black. By the way Banikas showed a nice idea for Black in his KID game against Vallejo! Check it!


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #103 - 11/07/11 at 17:37:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thx for mentioning that here, OC! I think I misspelled GM Banikas i the original. I'd forgotten that Amet had mentioned 15.Nb5 here. Radjabov, who was black in the Banikas-Radjabov game quoted above, seemed to be in trouble for a few moves, but recovered nicely to force the early draw. I too was leary of Radjabov's 19...a5, but 18..a6 looked completely normal to me. I hadn't noticed that Girschuk had already played 19..a5 in the blindfold game against Giri mentioned above. Banikas' 20.Nb5 may be a novelty. If that's the case, he probably studied my suggested improvement of 21/22.Bf2 at home. 21.Bf2 would have transposed to the Meier game quoted in post #85. 22.Bf2 may be a refinemnt on G. Meier's idea. I wonder what Radjabov would have done after 21/22.Bf2?


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OrangeCounty Full Member Offline You played that like it was a good move! Posts: 171 Joined: 05/26/10	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #102 - 11/07/11 at 17:26:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 03/11/08 at 22:54:01: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 o-o 5.e4 d6 6.Be2 e5 7.o-o Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.Rc1 g5 14.c5 Ng6 and now GM Svetyskin played against me 15.Nb5! This line is great for white! I followed the Golubev's suggestion and i was murdered! Does anyone want to discuss about this? I have lost my interest in the KID after this. I'll continue with the Grunfeld "GM Bannikas just played a game against Radjabov which featured 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2. It continued: 11...Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.c5 g5 14.Rc1 Ng6 15.Nb5 Rf7 16.Ba5 b6 17.cd6 cd6 18.Be1 a6 19.Nc3 a5 20.Nb5 Bf8 21.Rc3 g4 22.Qc2 gf3 23.Bf3 Ng4 24.Bf2 Nh4 25.Bg4 Bg4 26.Bh4 Qh4 27.Ne1 Qh5 28.Nf3 and they agreed to a draw. 21 or 22.Bf2 may have been an improvement for white." Smyslov posted this elsewhere. Note that 13-14 Rc1 and c5 are swapped, but that the position is the same. I will admit to suspicion of Bannikas' 18...a6 and 19...a5, but you can't argue with the results. Note that the suggested 21-22. Bf2 is stronger with the a-pawn off a7.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #101 - 03/22/11 at 14:32:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	The line was played in the blindfold game Giri-Grischuk today. [Event "Amber Chess 20th Blindfold"] [Site "Monaco"] [Date "2011-03-22"] [Round "9"] [White "Giri"] [Black "Grischuk"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [WhiteElo "2690"] [BlackElo "2747"] [WhiteCountry "NL"] [BlackCountry "RU"] [Board "1"] [Time "(0:13/0:06)"] [Analysis ""] [Match "01"] [Game "01"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 18. Be1 a6 19. Nc3 a5 20. a4 Bf8 21. Nf2 h5 22. h3 Rg7 23. Nb5 Nh4 24. Rc3 Rb8 25. Qc2 g4 26. fxg4 hxg4 27. Nxg4 Nxg4 28. Bxg4 Bxg4 29. hxg4 Rxg4 30. Bxh4 Qxh4 31. Rff3 Qe1 32. Rf1 Qh4 33. Rff3 Qe1 34. Rf1 Qh4 1/2-1/2

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #100 - 03/09/11 at 18:46:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nice game. But I think black`s best is to decline white`s offers with 15...Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 when I opine that white`s life isn`t as easy as this thread might have you believe. By the way, welcome to the forum!
	« Last Edit: 03/09/11 at 20:02:06 by Klick »
	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Mischa YaBB Newbies Offline Posts: 1 Joined: 03/08/11	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #99 - 03/08/11 at 08:56:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	I played the main line given by Panczyk & Ilczuk recently and think it is much better for white: Jendrian, M - Kramer, S [E99] corr 8. German Team ch Group LH-23/B03 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5.Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. f3 f5 11. Nd3 f4 12.Bd2 Nf6 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 a6 16. cxd6 axb5 17. dxc7 Qd7 18.Qb3 Ne8 19. Nc5 Qd6 20. Ne6 Bxe6 21. Bb4 Qb6+ 22. Bc5 Qa5 23. dxe6 Nxc7 24. Bb4 Qb6+ 25. Bc5 Qa5 26.Bxf8 Kxf8 27. Rfd1 Bf6 28. Rd7 Qb6+ 29. Kf1 Nxe6 30. Rcd1 Rd8 31. Qxb5 Qxb5 32.Bxb5 Be7 33. Bc4 Rxd7 34. Rxd7 Nd8 35. a4 Ke8 36. Rc7 h6 37. Bd5 b6 38.Bc6+ Kf7 39. b4 Nxc6 40. Rxc6 Bxb4 41. Rxb6 Bc3 42. Rb3 Bd4 43. Rb7+ Kf6 44. a5 Nf8 45. a6 Ne6 46. Ke2 h5 47.h3 g4 48. hxg4 hxg4 49. fxg4 Ng5 50. Kd3 f3 51. gxf3 Nxf3 52. Rd7 Bg1 53. a7 Bxa7 54. Rxa7 Kg5 55. Kc4 Kxg4 56.Kd5 Kg5 57. Rf7 1-0

	KID.pgn ( 0 KB \| 376 Downloads )
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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #98 - 04/23/10 at 01:07:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	In the game Papageno cites I can't help but think black's 24...Rb7 isn't best. 24...Rg7 or 24...Nf6 to prepare ...g4 seems a better try for black, and I don't see how white's attack can get there before a very effective ...g4 comes. The white Pe4 is a sore point preventing white from playing fxg4, so black doesn't even need ...h5 to prepare ...g4. Perhaps 24. Rc4 is better, since in the event of a black ...Nf6/...g4, the Pe4 would be protected in case of fxg4. It's also noteworthy that a Rc4 would keep the path clear for the b4/bxa5/Na7-c6/Qd2 targetting a5 idea that Papageno cites. 23. Qb3 Bd7 24. Rfc1 intending to sacrifice the exchange is also interesting, but more speculative. On the subject of 13...Rf7 - white can play 14. c5 anyway with good compensation.
	« Last Edit: 04/23/10 at 02:27:20 by BPaulsen »
	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #97 - 04/22/10 at 15:20:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	The Poles think that 10. Nd3 f5 11. f3 Kh8 12. Be3 is good for White.


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Papageno Senior Member Offline FM Posts: 299 Location: Germany Joined: 06/12/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #96 - 04/22/10 at 15:15:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for pointing out the possibility of 14. c5. This leaves us with an interesting move order issue of 11. f3 vs. 11. Bd2, which e.g. is not being addressed in the very old KI books I own. My conclusion so far: Maybe leaving the knight on d7 does not really help Black and does not necessarily slow down the white play with c4-c5... However, as the second player I would not be too much worried about this. - If I like the old mainline, then after 10.Nd3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bd2 g5 13.Rc1 Ng6 14.c5 I can play Nf6 anyway. - If I want to follow the Bologan repertoire, then I'd go for Kh8 in both move orders like this: 10.Nd3 f5 11.f3 Kh8 or 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Kh8. Right?


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #95 - 04/22/10 at 15:07:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Panczyk & Ilczuk give 13...Rf7 14. Nb5 as leading to an unclear position; on 14. c5 they give 14...dc (they think 14...Nxc5 leads to a slight advantage for White) 15. b4 cb 16. Nb5 with compensation.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #94 - 04/22/10 at 13:54:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	In the position TopNotch quoted after 14. c5, I have a survey done by Golubev/Glek in 2001 on it. They attach an "!" to 14. c5, here's some of the analysis: 14. c5 dxc5!? [14...Nxc5 15. Nxc5 dxc5 16. Na4 b6 17. b4 with compensation, 14...Nf6 transposes to the normal main lines] 15. Nb5 Rf6 (15...a6 16. Na3 +/-) 16. Qb3 Kh8 17. Nxc5 c6 unclear. Instead of 17...c6 black can do better with 17...Nxc5 18. Rxc5 c6 when he's at least equal. White has an interesting try in 15. Nb1!? intending 16. b4 with typical compensation in case of 15...b6, but 15...Rf6 snuffs it out. They also cover some other 13th move options for black. The only move they seem to like besides 13...Ng6 is 13...Rf7!?, but admittedly they don't cover anything for white besides 14. Nb5 there.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Lou_Cyber Full Member Offline "I didn´t understand that. It must be true." Posts: 237 Location: Rendsburg Joined: 01/28/05 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #93 - 04/22/10 at 13:21:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good to see you back in the forum, TopNotch ... I missed your comments on various threads in the winter.

	If you try, you may lose. If you don´t try, you have lost.
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #92 - 04/22/10 at 12:27:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 04/22/10 at 04:01:58: But then Black can play ...f4 (no Bg4), keeping his knight on d7 to hinder c5 for the time being. Good point, except for one thing, white can still play c5 anyway and reach more or less the same position by transposition. For example: Fridman,D (2661) - Polzin,R (2491) [E98] Bundesliga 2009-10 Berlin GER (6), 13.12.2009 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bd2 g5 13.Rc1 Ng6 14.c5 Nf6 15.Nb5 Ne8 16.Ba5 b6 17.cxb6 axb6 18.Be1 Rxa2 19.Na3 h5 20.Qb3 Rxa3 21.Qxa3 Bd7 22.Nf2 Rf7 23.Qa6 Bf8 24.Bb5 g4 25.Bxd7 Qxd7 26.Rc3 Rg7 27.Kh1 Nh4 28.Qc4 Qe7 29.fxg4 hxg4 30.g3 Nf6 31.gxh4 g3 32.hxg3 fxg3 33.Ng4 g2+ 34.Kxg2 Nxg4 35.Bg3 Qe8 36.Rcf3 Be7 37.Qxc7 Kh7 38.Qxb6 Qh5 39.Qa7 Bf6 40.Qa3 Bxh4 41.Rh1 Nh6 42.Rh3 Qg4 43.Qxd6 Qxe4 44.Rxh4 Qxh4 45.Qxe5 Qb4 46.Qc3 Qb7 47.Qc2+ Kg8 48.Qb3 Qd7 49.d6+ Nf7 50.Qd5 Kh7 51.Kf2 Ng5 52.Qf5+ Kg8 53.Qf8+ Kh7 54.Qf5+ Kg8 55.Qxd7 Rxd7 56.Re3 Rb7 57.Ke1 Kf8 58.Kd1 Nf7 59.Kc2 Rd7 60.b4 Nxd6 61.Bxd6+ Rxd6 62.Kb3 1-0 Accepting the pawn sac after 14.c5 in the above position is rare, but perhaps it deserves more serious study. Here is one practical example from a Correspondence game: Gatto,C (2164) - Bohak,J (2273) [E99] WS M/103 email ICCF email, 18.05.2007 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Nf3 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.f3 f5 11.Nd3 f4 12.Bd2 g5 13.Rc1 Ng6 14.c5 Nxc5 15.Nxc5 dxc5 16.Na4 b6 17.b4 cxb4 18.Bxb4 Rf6 19.Qb3 Kh8 20.Rc2 Bd7 21.Rfc1 Qe8 22.Nc3 Nh4 23.a4 a5 24.Ba3 g4 25.Nb5 gxf3 26.Bxf3 c5 27.dxc6 Bxc6 28.Nc7 Qg8 29.Qxg8+ Rxg8 30.Rxc6 Nxf3+ 31.gxf3 Bf8+ 32.Kf1 Bxa3 33.Rxf6 Bxc1 34.Nd5 Ba3 35.Rxb6 Bc5 36.Rb7 Rg7 37.Rb5 Rg1+ 38.Ke2 Rg2+ 39.Kd3 Bg1 40.Rb7 Rg7 41.Rb8+ Rg8 42.Rxg8+ Kxg8 43.h3 Kf7 44.Kc4 Bf2 45.Kb5 Be1 46.Nb6 h5 47.Nc4 Kf6 48.Nxa5 Kg5 49.Nc6 Kh4 50.Nxe5 Kxh3 51.Nd3 1-0 Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #91 - 04/22/10 at 08:24:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	BPaulsen wrote on 04/22/10 at 02:08:25: 11...Kh8 would be my preference (as seen in Bologan's book). I don't think white has anything there, and nor do older surveys by Glek/Golubev from 2001 show anything for white. I explained recently the ...Kh8 idea in one of my lectures as was explained to me by Shirov in his "KID Best games" DVD. Of course the idea is not the ...Ng8-Bh6 manouvre but to place the e7 knight in h6 acting like the f6 knight which now can be stay for a while on the usefull d7 and only at the last time to switch to the defensive Nf6-Ne8. It's a pitty Bologan doesn't make it clear in his book as Shirov does in his DVD.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #90 - 04/22/10 at 06:00:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 04/22/10 at 03:52:18: Ametanoitos wrote on 04/21/10 at 22:39:37: Thanks for the update. I started this popular thread some time ago and i expressed my loss of interest in the whole KID after discovering this line for White that i still believe that it could be a big pain for the hardcore KID player. Now, i'd choose 11...fxe4 which is completely satisfactory as i have heard from a friend-GM. So, all in all Black can avoid this line. But can black really avoid it so easily. Suppose white inverts the move order by going 11.f3 first and then only 12.Bd2. Food for thought if one really loves this line for white. Tops 11. f3 seems well met by 11...f4 - to my knowledge white's not supposed to play f3 (as a general rule) until after ...Nf6 by black.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #89 - 04/22/10 at 04:01:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	But then Black can play ...f4 (no Bg4), keeping his knight on d7 to hinder c5 for the time being.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #88 - 04/22/10 at 03:52:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 04/21/10 at 22:39:37: Thanks for the update. I started this popular thread some time ago and i expressed my loss of interest in the whole KID after discovering this line for White that i still believe that it could be a big pain for the hardcore KID player. Now, i'd choose 11...fxe4 which is completely satisfactory as i have heard from a friend-GM. So, all in all Black can avoid this line. But can black really avoid it so easily. Suppose white inverts the move order by going 11.f3 first and then only 12.Bd2. Food for thought if one really loves this line for white. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #87 - 04/22/10 at 02:08:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	11...Kh8 would be my preference (as seen in Bologan's book). I don't think white has anything there, and nor do older surveys by Glek/Golubev from 2001 show anything for white. I'm not totally trusting of 11...fxe4 in comparison, those positions are somewhere between += and = most of the time. Black's very solid, but that's about all that can be said in favor of his position, it's more of a two-result game. At least, that's the impression I've got based on the work I've done on it.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #86 - 04/21/10 at 22:39:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for the update. I started this popular thread some time ago and i expressed my loss of interest in the whole KID after discovering this line for White that i still believe that it could be a big pain for the hardcore KID player. Now, i'd choose 11...fxe4 which is completely satisfactory as i have heard from a friend-GM. So, all in all Black can avoid this line.


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Papageno Senior Member Offline FM Posts: 299 Location: Germany Joined: 06/12/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #85 - 04/21/10 at 21:49:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Here is a very recent and topical game in this line: [Event "AUT-chT 0910"] [Site "Austria"] [Date "2010.03.29"] [Round "10.1"] [White "Meier, Georg"] [Black "Polzin, Rainer"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "E99"] [WhiteElo "2663"] [BlackElo "2473"] [PlyCount "124"] [EventDate "2009.11.06"] [EventType "team-tourn"] [EventRounds "11"] [EventCountry "AUT"] [SourceDate "2010.03.31"] [WhiteTeam "Holz Dohr"] [BlackTeam "Wulkaprodersdorf"] [WhiteTeamCountry "AUT"] [BlackTeamCountry "AUT"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 18. Be1 a6 19. Nc3 a5 20. Bf2 Rb8 21. Nb5 Bf8 22. Rc6 Ne8 23. a4 Bd7 24. Rc3 Rb7 25. b4 h5 26. bxa5 bxa5 27. Na7 Nf6 28. Nc6 Qa8 29. Qc2 g4 30. Nb2 Rg7 31. Nc4 g3 32. hxg3 fxg3 33. Bxg3 h4 34. Bh2 Nh5 35. Ne3 Ng3 36. Re1 Nf4 37. Bd1 Rb6 38. Ng4 Kh8 39. Qf2 Rb1 40. Rce3 Bxc6 41. dxc6 Qxc6 42. Bxg3 hxg3 43. Qxg3 Be7 44. Qf2 Bd8 45. Bb3 Rxe1+ 46. Qxe1 Qc5 47. Kh1 Rh7+ 48. Nh2 Qd4 49. g3 Qb2 50. Qg1 Nh3 51. Qf1 Nf2+ 52. Kg1 Nh3+ 53. Kh1 Nf2+ 54. Kg1 Rxh2 55. Re2 Rh1+ 56. Kg2 Qxb3 57. Qxf2 Rh7 58. f4 Bb6 59. Rb2 Qxa4 60. Qe2 Qd4 61. Kf3 exf4 62. gxf4 Qc3+ 0-1 Just a few light notes: GM Georg Meier has been playing this line repeatedly over the last few months. He always preferred 18. Be1 (over 18. Bb4). He seems to agree here with YB-94 where Giri states "The square b4 belongs to the knight on d3." 20. Bf2N is new in this game and looks like a very reasonable plan. A few months before Meier chose 20. Nf2 (game is given in YB-94) when confronted with the then novelty 19... a5N. The white initiative on the queen's side seems to develop faster in our game. Maybe 29. Qd2 g4 30. Rc4 would have been a more direct approach to exploit the weakness at a5. This seems to give White the upper hand. Nevertheless, the black attack on the king's side finally won the game for black side.


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gewgaw God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 687 Location: europe Joined: 09/09/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #84 - 04/06/10 at 18:56:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Impressive thread, even NIC Y94 has nothing to add. Grats for everybody! P.S. What about g2-g4 after f5-f4?

	The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #83 - 02/13/10 at 18:41:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	The B has no reason to come back to e1 immediately. Qd1 can be played as well to prevent ...g4 before hand. 22. h3 is more consistent. Then if black follows the same move sequence white goes in for Qd1 in place of Be1. There's no rush on playing Be1. On b4 it supports the Na3-c4/Pa5 idea, too. If black can't force through ...g4 then white has time. If black elects to chase the Bb4 back to e1 with ...a5, then white in essence gains a move he wanted to play anyway. Sample: 21...Rg7 22. h3 a6 23. Na3 Nf6 24. Qd1 Nh4 25. Nc4, with a5 to likely follow. Be1 can be played if black chooses to chase the B with ...a5.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Klick

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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #82 - 02/13/10 at 14:28:16

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Valuable input. I did have a look at some similar ideas and found that white has to be real careful to not allow a Ng6-h4xg2 sacrifice followed by g5-g4 at some point. Thats one downside to Nf2: it shields h4 for the Be1.

Lets say we have 21.Nf2 Rg7 22. Be1 a6 23.Na3 Nh4 24. h3 Nf6 and now g5-g4 is on the table.

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN

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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #81 - 02/13/10 at 13:27:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	21. Nf2 makes more sense than 21. Qd1. The N is supposed to go to f2 in these positions anyway, and h3 can follow. White's not supposed to be going on all-out offense, he can safely afford to secure the K-side. White will make ...g4 as unappetizing as possible while setting up the Na4-c4 and a5 break. The Qc2 should only move `when it has to`, otherwise white goes into the Nf2/h3/Be1/Na3-c4 set-up. It can go to d1 if it ends up being necessary, or not at all. The plan to put the Bb4 on f2 is never correct in these positions. It'll usually camp out on e1 awaiting a Nh4 (necessary to force through ...g4) where it'll get chopped, or if black ventures ...a5 then it'll support a b4 advance. Be1-f2 is one of those moves computers tend to love, but is about as strategically wrong as it gets. The whole point behind Nd3 (aside from supporting c5) is to go to f2 to prevent the ...g4 break, and provide protection to the e4 pawn as well.

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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #80 - 02/13/10 at 12:07:53

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I have looked a lot at this variation lately and while initially optimistic for white`s cause I`ve turned increasingly pessimistic about his chances. I have failed at finding anything substantial for white. It seems to me that while Black makes sensible moves on the kingside to initiate his hacking, whites play on the queenside is too slow. I have looked at deviations and agree that

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5
Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 is the tabiya for this line

and that 18. Be1 a6 19. Nc3 a5 20. Nb5 g4 is sufficient for Black.

However, I don`t think there is anything to be found in the other line either. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5
Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 18. Bb4 Bf8 19. Qc2 Ne8 20. a4 h5 21. Qd1 Rg7 22. Be1

a6 23. Na3 a5 24. Nc4 Nf6 25. Bf2 Rb8 26. Rc3 g4 27. Rb3 Nh7 28. Bxb6 {This is good for white, but only this will do, other captures are better for black.} (28. Nxb6 Rxb6 29. Bxb6 Qh4 30. Kh1 (30. Qd2 g3 31. hxg3
fxg3 32. Rc1 Qh2+ 33. Kf1 Bh3 34. Ne1 Qh1+ 35. Bg1 Ng5 36. Bd1 Nh4 37. Rc2 Nxe4
38. fxe4 Bxg2+ 39. Nxg2 Rf7+ 40. Ke2 Qxg2+ 41. Kd3 Qxg1) 30... g3 31. Bg1 Ng5
32. Qd2 Nh3 33. gxh3 g2+ 34. Kxg2 Bxh3+ 35. Kh1 Ne7 36. Nxf4 Qxf4 37. Be3 Bg2+
38. Kg1 Bxf1+ 39. Kxf1 Qxh2) (28. Rxb6 Rxb6 29. Nxb6 g3 30. hxg3 fxg3 31. Bxg3
Qxb6+)

However why kick the knight to c4? 22..a5 seems fine to me. 23.Rc6 Nf6 24.Bf2 Rb8 and now what? Whites play on the queenside seems way too slow and black threatens to crash through on the kingside on every turn.

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN

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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #79 - 12/15/09 at 09:23:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think the 11...Kh8!? system followed by ...Ng8 deserves attention, and White should only achieve a small edge at best. I have attached my analyses to this post, with three games from Informant plus my own annotations.

	I_lost_my_interest_after_this.pgn ( 5 KB \| 351 Downloads ) All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #78 - 12/14/09 at 07:10:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, the way Ivanchuk played is an old main line which as far as I know has generally been considered equal/unclear for 30+ years. The recent Panczyk/Ilczuk book also reflects that view, with regard to both 22...a6 and 22...Nf6.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #77 - 12/14/09 at 01:54:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	gewgaw wrote on 12/13/09 at 22:55:41: kylemeister wrote on 12/13/09 at 21:40:31: gewgaw wrote on 12/13/09 at 20:57:38: {the usual dollar signs and whatnot} It seems otb the line is playable for black, in cor. games probably not. I suppose by "the line" you mean the unusual and apparently dubious 22...g4. You are right, these "$" and so on is horrible to read, but just copy and pase the whole stuff and it should be perfectly readable in chessbase programms. I´m really very interessted in this line with white, because my next opponent plays this line with black. Actually...what is the conclusion/main line of the whole stuff so far, it´s quite difficult no to lose the overview?! It's still being worked on by a number of us. That said, a few conclusions based on the progression of the thread: The primary focus of attention is 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5. Kylemester mentioned that a recent book thought 11...fxe4 was equal/unclear, and to my knowledge that line is somewhere between += and =, with white being positionally better, but black being solid. Conclusions we've generally established: 15...a6 16. dxc6 looks += at best, unclear at worst when black accepts the N. I agree with TN's analysis that it tends more towards being good for white than being unclear. 15...Rf7 is met by 16. Ba5 when b6 is met by 17. cxd6, because if black accepts the offered bishop he's just worse. 17...cxd6 is best met in turn by 18. Bb4 Bf8 19. Qc2 Ne8, and based on my research so far 20. a4 is white's best try for an advantage. Alternatives to 20. a4 are too slow, and white's pieces end up awkwardly placed after a 20...a6 response due to lacking access to the Na3-c4 maneuver, which in turn gives black the initiative.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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gewgaw God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 687 Location: europe Joined: 09/09/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #76 - 12/13/09 at 22:55:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 12/13/09 at 21:40:31: gewgaw wrote on 12/13/09 at 20:57:38: {the usual dollar signs and whatnot} It seems otb the line is playable for black, in cor. games probably not. I suppose by "the line" you mean the unusual and apparently dubious 22...g4. You are right, these "$" and so on is horrible to read, but just copy and pase the whole stuff and it should be perfectly readable in chessbase programms. I´m really very interessted in this line with white, because my next opponent plays this line with black. Actually...what is the conclusion/main line of the whole stuff so far, it´s quite difficult no to lose the overview?!

	The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #75 - 12/13/09 at 21:40:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	gewgaw wrote on 12/13/09 at 20:57:38: {the usual dollar signs and whatnot} It seems otb the line is playable for black, in cor. games probably not. I suppose by "the line" you mean the unusual and apparently dubious 22...g4.


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gewgaw God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 687 Location: europe Joined: 09/09/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #74 - 12/13/09 at 20:57:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Another last word of the theory: [Event "Sofia MTel Masters 4th"] [Site "Sofia"] [Date "2008.05.11"] [Round "4"] [White "Ivanchuk, Vassily"] [Black "Cheparinov, Ivan"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "E99"] [WhiteElo "2740"] [BlackElo "2696"] [Annotator "Krasenkow"] [PlyCount "79"] [EventDate "2008.05.08"] [EventType "tourn"] [EventRounds "10"] [EventCountry "BUL"] [EventCategory "20"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2008.05.28"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. cxd6 cxd6 16. Nb5 Rf7 17. Qc2 Ne8 18. Nf2 h5 19. a4 Bf8 20. h3 Rg7 21. Qb3 Nh4 22. Rc2 g4 {This position is well-known in opening theory.} (22... Nf6 {and}) ( 22... a6 {are the most common moves.}) {The text move (an attempt of an immediate attack) is probably premature.} 23. fxg4 Nf6 24. Be1 $1 hxg4 (24... Kh8 25. g3 $1 (25. Qc4 hxg4 26. Nxg4 Nxg4 27. Bxg4 Bxg4 28. hxg4 Rxg4 29. Qd3 Qg5 $44 {1/2-1/2 Ftacnik,L-Pribyl,J/Bratislava 1983/MCD (57)}) 25... hxg4 26. Nxg4 Nxg4 27. hxg4 Bxg4 28. Bxg4 Rxg4 29. Nc7 Rb8 30. Ne6 Qb6+ 31. Qxb6 axb6 32. Kh2 $16) 25. hxg4 (25. Nxg4 Nxg4 (25... Nxe4 26. Qc4 Nc5 27. Bf2) 26. Bxg4 Bxg4 27. hxg4 Rxg4 28. Qh3 Qg5 29. Nc7 (29. Bxh4 $6 Rxh4 30. Qe6+ Kh8 31. Rf3 Be7 32. Rfc3 Rg8 $132 {0-1 Sanchis,A-Roger,M/France 2003/EXT 2004 (42)}) 29... Rb8 (29... Rc8 30. Ne6 Rxc2 31. Nxg5 Rgxg2+ 32. Kh1 $18) 30. Ne6 Qh5 31. Kh1 $16) 25... Nh5 {Black tries to avoid the above variation, which would arise after} (25... Nxg4 26. Nxg4 Bxg4 27. Bxg4 Rxg4) 26. Nh1 $6 (26. Nd1 $142 $1 Bxg4 27. Bxg4 Rxg4 28. Qh3 Qg5 29. Nc7 Rc8 $1 (29... f3 30. Bxh4 Rxh4 31. Qe6+ Kh8 32. Rxf3) 30. Kh1 $1 Rxc7 (30... Ng3+ 31. Bxg3 Rxg3 32. Qxc8 Qh5 33. Qe6+ Kh8 34. Qe8 Qh6 35. Kg1 $18) 31. Rxc7 Ng3+ 32. Bxg3 Rxg3 33. Rg1 $3 Qh5 34. Qh2 Rg6 35. Rxb7 Rh6 36. Rb3 $16) 26... f3 $6 (26... Bxg4 $142 27. Bxg4 Rxg4 28. Qh3 Qg5 29. Nc7 Rc8 $1 30. Bxh4 Qxh4 31. Qxh4 Rxh4 32. Rfc1 Ng7 33. Nf2 Rh6 { and the endgame far from clear.}) 27. Bxf3 (27. gxf3 $1 Nf4 28. Ng3 Qb6+ 29. Bf2 Nh3+ 30. Kh2 Nxf2 31. a5 Qxa5 32. Rxf2 Qb6 33. Bc4 Bd7 34. Na3 Rh7 35. Nh5 Be7 36. Qxb6 axb6 37. Bb5 $1 $16 Rxa3 $140 38. bxa3 Bxb5 39. Rc8+ Kf7 40. f4 $18) 27... Nf4 {Looks formidable but White successfully defends.} 28. Ng3 (28. Bxh4 {was safer but after} Qxh4 29. g3 (29. Rc7 Rg6) 29... Nh3+ 30. Kg2 Nf4+ $1 (30... Qh7 31. Nf2) 31. Kf2 Nh3+ 32. Ke1 Qd8 33. Nf2 Ng5 34. Be2 Rf7 {Black has a kind of fortress.}) 28... Bxg4 (28... Nxf3+ 29. gxf3 Qb6+ 30. Bf2 Nh3+ 31. Kg2 Nf4+ (31... Nxf2 32. a5 $1 Qxa5 33. Rfxf2) 32. Kh1 Rh7+ (32... Qd8 33. Bg1) 33. Nh5 Qd8 34. Bg3 Nxh5 35. gxh5 Rxh5+ 36. Bh2 $16) 29. Bxg4 Rxg4 30. Nc7 (30. Rff2 Qg5 31. Rfd2 Qf6 32. Rc3 Qg6 $44) 30... Rc8 $1 31. Ne6 Rxc2 $1 32. Qxc2 (32. Nxd8 $4 Rxg2+ 33. Kh1 Nf3 $1 $19) 32... Qb6+ $2 {This move misses the target.} (32... Qe8 $1 $44 {lead to an unclear position.}) 33. Kh1 Nhxg2 ( 33... Nf3 $5 {was, alas, unsatisfactory:} 34. Nxf4 Nxe1 35. Qc8 $1 Rxf4 36. Rxf4 exf4 37. Nf5 Qf2 38. Ne7+ $1 {and White mates}) (33... Nhg6 $142 {but after} 34. Bf2 (34. Nf5 $5 Rxg2 35. Bf2 Qb4 36. Ne3 $16) 34... Qb4 35. Kg1 { White starts converting his material advantage.}) 34. Nf5 $1 Qa6 (34... Nxe6 35. dxe6 Nxe1 36. Qe2 $1 Rg5 37. e7 $18) 35. Rg1 Qd3 36. Qxd3 Nxd3 37. Bh4 Rxe4 38. Rxg2+ Kf7 39. Nxd6+ Bxd6 40. Ng5+ {Quite a typical KI game: Black's attack looked very strong but White defended in a tense tactical fight.} 1-0 Especially annotation on move 26. Nd1 is very impressive. It seems otb the line is playable for black, in cor. games probably not.

	The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #73 - 12/06/09 at 04:48:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	18. Bb4 Bf8 19. Qc2!? Ne8 and now: 20. Be1 a6 21. Nc3 a5 22. Qb3!? Nf6 23. Bf2 Rb8 and now the obvious 24. Nb5 g4! looks to give Black decent counterplay, unless White has some strong idea to oppose the ...g3 pawn sacrifice next move. I'd like to hear what Ametanoitos had in mind here or on move 24. 20. a4!? is interesting, and I'll have to take a deeper look at it.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #72 - 12/04/09 at 07:08:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Alright, I've been toying with this some more. Instead of 20. Be1, I prefer 20. a4 intending Na3-c4 with better piece coordination after black plays ...a6 at some point. Be1 can always be played later as necessary, or perhaps not at all.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Ludde Full Member Offline So much theory..so little time Posts: 155 Location: Stockholm Joined: 10/16/09 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #71 - 12/01/09 at 08:34:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	TonyRo wrote on 11/20/09 at 18:12:53: Yeah. I don't think I'd play this line against a KID expert or in CC chess, but a quick look at all of the analysis in this thread shows how difficult in can be for Black if White know what he's doing, and will give you a pretty solid overview of theory and beyond if you wanted a new surprise variation. Still there is a huge difference between a line that is a surprise vatiation which is difficult to meet in practice compared to a line that makes you lose interest in the KID overall ..as in the title of the thread.


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #70 - 11/20/09 at 18:12:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yeah. I don't think I'd play this line against a KID expert or in CC chess, but a quick look at all of the analysis in this thread shows how difficult in can be for Black if White know what he's doing, and will give you a pretty solid overview of theory and beyond if you wanted a new surprise variation.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #69 - 11/20/09 at 17:52:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	I've been putting around with the position after Papageno's 23...Rb8. I think the position at that point is already better for black. Not only can white not prevent g4-g3, but he has zero queen-side play. Compare this to the more theoretical lines where white's piece coordination is much more effective (The white Nb5 will route via a3-c4 with a pawn on a4 to prevent it from getting hemmed in by ...b5, tempi aren't wasted on the bishop, and the Nd3 will go to f2.). I was pretty excited about the idea of an early Nb5, but I honestly think the whole idea with Ba5 is a mistake.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #68 - 09/26/09 at 14:00:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Fissore-Petrillo continued with 20...Qg6 21. Be1, Berkes-Pavlovic with 20...Kh8 21. Ne6. In your last line P&I think the position after 28...Rd8 is unclear.


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #67 - 09/26/09 at 13:39:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 09/26/09 at 13:26:34: TN wrote on 09/26/09 at 08:07:38: Templare2 wrote on 09/26/09 at 06:10:28: If Nb5 is so strong, why not 15.., a6 preventing Nb5? I am not sure whether you mean 14...a6 or 15...a6, so I will address both options. a) 14...a6 does not seem at all convincing to me after 15.a4! (with the idea of playing a4-a5 before cd6 to control the key b6-square) 15...Rf7 (15...h5 16.a5 g4 17.cd6 cd6 18.Na4 and in Clavijo-Nunez, 2000, Black's attack never got off the ground) 16.a5 Bf8 17.cd6 cd6 18.Na4 g4 19.Nb6 Rb8 and in Schorr-Quelle, 1981, White should have played the simple 20.Nc8 Rc8 21.Qb3 with a clear advantage. Black's attack is not achieving anything. b) 15...a6 is an important option, though, since it essentially forces White to sacrifice a piece. However, White achieves tremendous compensation: 16.cd6 (16.Na3 g4 17.Be1 g3! was already promising for Black in Pachman-Padevsky, 1957) 16...ab5 17.dc7 Qe8!? (17...Qd7 is more common but inferior after 18.Qb3 Ne8 19.Nc5 Qd6 20.Ne6! Qb6 21.Kh1 Be6 22.de6 and White had a tremendous advantage in Biriukov-Solovjov, soon agreeing a draw in a winning position) 18.Qb3 g4 (played in Novik-Ezat, blitz 2003) 19.Nc5 Nh4 and now instead of 20.Kh1, 20.d6 Kh8 21.fg4 Qg6 22.Qh3 would have been clearly better and probably winning for White. In conclusion, White achieves clearly better chances in both the 14...a6 and 15...a6 variations. In that last line 20. fg (as in Fissore-Petrillo, corr. 1984 and Berkes-Pavlovic, played in the Serbian team championship three weeks ago) is reputed to be clearly better for White. Panczyk and Ilczuk think 18...Qd7 is better than 18...Qe8, and that Black should deviate from Biriukov-Soloviov with 20...Bxe6. They give a couple of lines (one of them attributed to Soloviov) which are said to be unclear. 20.fg4 should transpose to my given line after 20...Qg6 21.d6 Kh8 since I can't see any alternatives to 20...Qg6 for Black. However, 20...Be6 is an interesting alternative which seems to be better than what Huzman's notes to the aforementioned Biriukov-Solovjov game indicate. My main line runs 21.Bb4 (21.de6 Nc7 22.Bb4 will transpose) 21...Qb6 22.Bc5 Qa5 23.de6 (! Huzman) 23...Nc7 24.Bf8 (24.e7 Rf7 25.Rfd1 Bf6 26.Rd7 Ne8 is far from clear although I'd rather take White's position) 24...Kf8 25.Rfd1 and now 25...Bf6 seems like an improvement, but even so White retains some edge after 26.Rd7 Qb6 27.Kf1 Ne6 28.Rcd1 Rd8 29.Qb5 Qb5 30.Bb5 and White's rook and light squared bishop is more useful than the two knights and dark-squared bishop, especially since White's passed pawn(s) on the queenside will be quite menacing.

	All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #66 - 09/26/09 at 13:26:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	TN wrote on 09/26/09 at 08:07:38: Templare2 wrote on 09/26/09 at 06:10:28: If Nb5 is so strong, why not 15.., a6 preventing Nb5? I am not sure whether you mean 14...a6 or 15...a6, so I will address both options. a) 14...a6 does not seem at all convincing to me after 15.a4! (with the idea of playing a4-a5 before cd6 to control the key b6-square) 15...Rf7 (15...h5 16.a5 g4 17.cd6 cd6 18.Na4 and in Clavijo-Nunez, 2000, Black's attack never got off the ground) 16.a5 Bf8 17.cd6 cd6 18.Na4 g4 19.Nb6 Rb8 and in Schorr-Quelle, 1981, White should have played the simple 20.Nc8 Rc8 21.Qb3 with a clear advantage. Black's attack is not achieving anything. b) 15...a6 is an important option, though, since it essentially forces White to sacrifice a piece. However, White achieves tremendous compensation: 16.cd6 (16.Na3 g4 17.Be1 g3! was already promising for Black in Pachman-Padevsky, 1957) 16...ab5 17.dc7 Qe8!? (17...Qd7 is more common but inferior after 18.Qb3 Ne8 19.Nc5 Qd6 20.Ne6! Qb6 21.Kh1 Be6 22.de6 and White had a tremendous advantage in Biriukov-Solovjov, soon agreeing a draw in a winning position) 18.Qb3 g4 (played in Novik-Ezat, blitz 2003) 19.Nc5 Nh4 and now instead of 20.Kh1, 20.d6 Kh8 21.fg4 Qg6 22.Qh3 would have been clearly better and probably winning for White. In conclusion, White achieves clearly better chances in both the 14...a6 and 15...a6 variations. In that last line 20. fg (as in Fissore-Petrillo, corr. 1984 and Berkes-Pavlovic, played in the Serbian team championship three weeks ago) is reputed to be clearly better for White. Panczyk and Ilczuk think 18...Qd7 is better than 18...Qe8, and that Black should deviate from Biriukov-Soloviov with 20...Bxe6. They give a couple of lines (one of them attributed to Soloviov) which are said to be unclear.


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Templare2 Full Member Offline Mess with the best, die like the rest Posts: 146 Joined: 08/23/06 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #65 - 09/26/09 at 11:51:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks TN for your answer. My question was on 14.., a6 and I've read this note of John Nunn in "The New Classical King's Indian". After 14. cxd6 cxd6 15. Rc1 Ng6 16. Nb5 Nunn write: "White should probably play this [ Nb5] at once for two reasons. Firstly Black may play .., a6 preventing Nb5 and leaving White with no easy route for the c3 knight to reach b6 ( a4-a5 and Na4 is hard to arrange with the Rook not on a1)..."

	"Forza e onore!"
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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #64 - 09/26/09 at 08:07:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Templare2 wrote on 09/26/09 at 06:10:28: If Nb5 is so strong, why not 15.., a6 preventing Nb5? I am not sure whether you mean 14...a6 or 15...a6, so I will address both options. a) 14...a6 does not seem at all convincing to me after 15.a4! (with the idea of playing a4-a5 before cd6 to control the key b6-square) 15...Rf7 (15...h5 16.a5 g4 17.cd6 cd6 18.Na4 and in Clavijo-Nunez, 2000, Black's attack never got off the ground) 16.a5 Bf8 17.cd6 cd6 18.Na4 g4 19.Nb6 Rb8 and in Schorr-Quelle, 1981, White should have played the simple 20.Nc8 Rc8 21.Qb3 with a clear advantage. Black's attack is not achieving anything. b) 15...a6 is an important option, though, since it essentially forces White to sacrifice a piece. However, White achieves tremendous compensation: 16.cd6 (16.Na3 g4 17.Be1 g3! was already promising for Black in Pachman-Padevsky, 1957) 16...ab5 17.dc7 Qe8!? (17...Qd7 is more common but inferior after 18.Qb3 Ne8 19.Nc5 Qd6 20.Ne6! Qb6 21.Kh1 Be6 22.de6 and White had a tremendous advantage in Biriukov-Solovjov, soon agreeing a draw in a winning position) 18.Qb3 g4 (played in Novik-Ezat, blitz 2003) 19.Nc5 Nh4 and now instead of 20.Kh1, 20.d6 Kh8 21.fg4 Qg6 22.Qh3 would have been clearly better and probably winning for White. In conclusion, White achieves clearly better chances in both the 14...a6 and 15...a6 variations.

	All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Templare2 Full Member Offline Mess with the best, die like the rest Posts: 146 Joined: 08/23/06 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #63 - 09/26/09 at 06:10:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	If Nb5 is so strong, why not 15.., a6 preventing Nb5?

	"Forza e onore!"
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #62 - 09/20/09 at 19:43:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	I've read some (to me at least) amusing stuff about this variation in the last few days, e.g. at Chessdom, concerning the very recent game Giri-Nijboer. There the amazing claim is made that the whole piece-sac line by White is the "latest of the latest," and that until very recently White always played cd before Nb5. Well, for one thing, the piece-sac was already given as a main line in the first (1978) edition of ECO. 17...Qd7 (as played by Nijboer) is labelled a novelty at Chessdom, but was given in the 31-year-old book, as was the idea (mentioned earlier in this thread, but ignored at Chessdom) of meeting 18. Bb4 (as played by Giri) by 18...Ne8. Then there is the comment "Who knows Black can go for the early deviation 11...fe!?". But 11...fe has been a book move for decades. I have the impression that it used to be considered an equalizer, then maybe the pendulum swung toward +=; the recent Panczyk/Ilczuk book gives a number of lines and thinks it should be equal or unclear.


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Papageno Senior Member Offline FM Posts: 299 Location: Germany Joined: 06/12/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #61 - 08/27/09 at 20:17:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe I lost the thread, but one thing I've learned here so far is that Black has to go for the counterplay g5-g4-g3. So in your line Black can improve a bit: 18.Bb4! Bf8 19.Qc2!? Ne8 20.Be1 a6 21.Nc3 a5 22.Qb3!? Nf6 (to try to play g4) 23.Bf2 and here 23... Rb8 must be better than Nd7, since the knight is perfectly placed on f6. Next comes g5-g4-g3. I don't know who is better after this pawn sac, but I'm sure Black cannot do without it.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #60 - 08/25/09 at 14:58:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	17...cxb6 18.Bb4! Bf8 19.Qc2!? is a bit better for White because Black's best is now 19...Ne8 when 20.Be1 (White is not afraid of g4 ideas anymore) with the idea Nb4. A sample line is 20...a6 21.Nc3 a5 22.Qb3!? Nf6 (to try to play g4) 23.Bf2 Nd7 (there is nothing better) 24.Na4 Rb8 25.Qb5 and Black only waits for White to double on the c file and claim a winning position.


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buffos

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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #59 - 06/28/09 at 11:13:22

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Well i have to agree with TonyRo. Both 21.Qa4 and 21.Nc3 are perfectly playble for black. 21.Nc3 is even very dangerous for white, and 21.Qa4 does only lead to a small "but dangerous" plus.

For now i am stepping few moves back , trying to find if there is an entry

For the record the best line i could find in Qa4 is...

21. Qa4 Nxe4 22. fxe4 f3 23. Bd1 Bd7 24. Nxd6 Qxd6 25. Qb4 Qxb4 (25... Qf6 26. Rc3 Qg5 27. g3 b5 28. Bb3) 26. Bxb4 fxg2 27. Rxf7 Kxf7 28. Kxg2 Nf4+ 29. Kg3 h5 30. Rc3 h4+ 31. Kf2 Nh3+ 32. Kg2 Ng5 33. Bc2 Nf3 34. Bd6 Rc8 35. Kh1 +=

Although this could be improved by both sides i guess

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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #58 - 06/24/09 at 16:08:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yeah. I have to say, I'm pretty pleased with myself. I doubt buffos will find anything. He's been uncharacteristically quiet since he's seen my recent addition. Hopefully now he realizes that Black's kingside chances in the KID are very real, and that it's never, "very, very, simple".


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #57 - 06/24/09 at 15:50:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	TonyRo wrote on 06/24/09 at 15:49:06: Yes, I found this game a couple of days after I came up with the idea when I was seeing if it had been played before. I was quite shocked to see 21. Qa4 instead of 21. Nc3, but it looks interesting! One idea I came up with was: 21. Qa4 Nxe4!? 22. fxe4 f3! 23. Bd1 Bd7! 24. Nc7 (24. Nxd6 Qxd6 25. gxf3 Nf4 is also okay for Black, for instance 26. Qb3 Qh6 27. Rc2 Nh3+ 28. Kh1 Ng5 29. Qxb6 Qh3 30. Rcf2 Nxe4! 31. fxe4 g3) fxg2! 25. Rf2 Bh6!, when Black is fine. Quite a nice, precise sequence in my opinion! I don't think white has anything in this line, especially if moves like 21. Qa4 are the best white has. 21. Nc3 doesn't impress either. Maybe buffos will come up with something amazing.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #56 - 06/24/09 at 15:49:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, I found this game a couple of days after I came up with the idea when I was seeing if it had been played before. I was quite shocked to see 21. Qa4 instead of 21. Nc3, but it looks interesting! One idea I came up with was: 21. Qa4 Nxe4!? 22. fxe4 f3! 23. Bd1 Bd7! 24. Nc7 (24. Nxd6 Qxd6 25. gxf3 Nf4 is also okay for Black, for instance 26. Qb3 Qh6 27. Rc2 Nh3+ 28. Kh1 Ng5 29. Qxb6 Qh3 30. Rcf2 Nxe4! 31. fxe4 g3) fxg2! 25. Rf2 Bh6!, when Black is fine. Quite a nice, precise sequence in my opinion!


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #55 - 06/24/09 at 04:53:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Spasov-Tesic, ICCF E-mail 2004 saw this exact continuation. White chose 21. Qa4 instead of 21. Nc3. The game ended in a draw.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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buffos YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 39 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #54 - 06/17/09 at 05:50:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	i just saw it... so give me some time to see it


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #53 - 06/12/09 at 16:12:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	No one (and by no one I mean buffos) wants to take a shot at my last line given!? Cmon folks!


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #52 - 06/10/09 at 17:54:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	gewgaw wrote on 06/10/09 at 17:49:40: Who plays 13.c5.... The NON-sissies.


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gewgaw God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 687 Location: europe Joined: 09/09/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #51 - 06/10/09 at 17:49:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Who plays 13.c5 - 13.g4 is THE move!

	The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #50 - 06/10/09 at 15:27:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	BPaulsen, I really appreciate the kind words! I love the KID, and I love analyzing complicated positions even more, so it's nice to know that other people appreciate what I'm doing! Ametanoitos, Maybe, maybe not! I had another idea today while I was in the shower (some of my best ideas come from shampooing and conditioning!) - why let the knight stay on b5? The knight on c6, at least to me, is no big deal as long as the Black queen gets the f8 square. The knight on b5 is more annoying for sure, when it takes on a7 or jumps into c7/d6. Let's skip out on the early ...a6 lines and just play ...g4, but then kick the b5 knight back out at the appropriate moment and just continue like in all the other lines, except that there will be no annoying Nbxa7 / Nc7 business. Let's look...after: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.f3 Nf6 12.Bd2 f4 13.c5 g5 14.Rc1 Ng6 15.Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 18. Be1 g4 19. Nb4 a6!? 20. Nc6 (20. Nc3 is possible of course, but after 20...g3, I see nothing better for White than 21. Nc6 Qf8, transposing) Qf8 21. Nc3 g3 and now: 22. h3? Nh4! 23. Na4 (a lot of other moves allow 23...Bxh3! 24. gxh3 Qc8-+) Bh8!? (23...Rb7!? might be better, but 23...Bh8 seems more in the KID spirit!) 24. Nxb6 Nxg2! 25. Nxc8 Ne3 26. N8e7+ Rxe7 27. Nxe7+ Qxe7 28. Qa4 Qa7!? with a complicated position with chances for both sides. I might take Black. 22. Na4 Rb7!? when one possible line is 23. hxg3 fxg3 24. Bxg3 Bh6 25. Rc2 Qg7! 26. Bd3 Nh5 27. Bf2 Ngf4 28. g4 Nf6 followed by something smacking on g4. 22. Bd3 Nh5!? (22...Bh6 is probably also playable) and now: 23. h3 Nh4! (Black wants to play ...Bxh3 followed by ...Qc8 again, so White needs to move a knight off the c-file to defend) 24. Na4 Rb7!? (Black threatens ...b5, kicking the knight back on to the c-file) 25. b4 b5 26. Nb2 Bxh3!! (Anyway! The follow up his harder this time!) 27. gxh3 Qf7!! (the queen goes to d7, then h3) 28. Rc2 Qd7 29. Rg2 Qxh3 30. Qe2 h5! with the idea of Nh7-g5, gives Black a raging attack! 23. Ne2 gxh2+ 24. Kxg2 Ng3! 25. Nxg3 fxg3+ 26. Bxg3 Bh6 27. Rc2 Be3-> 23. Na4 gxh2+ 24. Kxh2 Rb7 is once again okay for Black 23. Rc2 Bf6 24. h3 Nh4 25. Na4 Bd8 looks better for Black to me.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #49 - 06/10/09 at 08:47:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	So, maybe i was right to lose my interest in the KID after facing this line? (I was the one that started this thread long time ago )


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #48 - 06/10/09 at 02:50:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	TonyRo wrote on 06/09/09 at 19:45:06: Buffos, Nice find on 23. Rc2! Anyway, here's another idea for Black, since I missed this move: 22. Nbxa7 Bf6 23. Nxc8 (23. h3? Bxh3->) gxh2+ 24. Kh1 (24. Kxh2 Qh6+ 25. Kg1 Bh4->) Rxc8 25. Qa4 (maybe here's where White needs to look, but this was Rybka's first choice, so I'm just giving it here as an example) Ng7! 26. Kxh2 Nh5-> Black seems okay here. Edit: 25. Be1 looks decent! I have nothing to add, but I'd like to say that thanks largely to your work (and the work of some others) this has turned into one of the most fascinating discussions I've seen on this forum next to the extremely long one in the French area. There might not be a deeper KID variation than this one. Even if this line emerged as += it would be incredibly hard to conduct the white pieces in practice, a task for a great technician (ie: Kramnik).

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #47 - 06/09/09 at 19:45:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Buffos, Nice find on 23. Rc2! Anyway, here's another idea for Black, since I missed this move: 22. Nbxa7 Bf6 23. Nxc8 (23. h3? Bxh3->) gxh2+ 24. Kh1 (24. Kxh2 Qh6+ 25. Kg1 Bh4->) Rxc8 25. Qa4 (maybe here's where White needs to look, but this was Rybka's first choice, so I'm just giving it here as an example) Ng7! 26. Kxh2 Nh5-> Black seems okay here. Edit: 25. Be1 looks decent!


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buffos YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 39 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #46 - 06/05/09 at 06:36:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I can only assume your first variation, 21...Bh8 was some kind of gross typo. I don't think you could find a worse choice! However, I have some ideas - what about: No Bh8 is an idea to get the Queen to h6 fast without getting the N at f6 to defense. Anyway. The variations you give are correct BUT i think better is after 23.Rc2 Bf6 24.h3 Nh4 25.Nb5 Qh6 26.Bc4 and now 26...Ng2 Rg2 27.Bh3 Qd2 does not seem to bring black anything


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #45 - 06/04/09 at 18:27:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	I can only assume your first variation, 21...Bh8 was some kind of gross typo. I don't think you could find a worse choice! However, I have some ideas - what about: 21...Ne8 22. Nbxa7 Bd7 23. Be1 Bf6! for example, if you'd like to snatch the pawn, 24. hxg3 fxg3 25. Bxg3 Qh6 and now: 26. Nb5 Rg7-> 26. Rc2 Bg5-> Any move you find here is going to be fine for Black because his pieces have a lot of scope and your dark squares are a huge cause for concern. If you don't want the pawn: 24. h3? Nh4! and I take on g2 next move, and you're busted. Most other moves will be met by 24...gxh2+ and 25...Qh6+, or if you don't take it, I find a way to put a knight on g3, material be damned!


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buffos

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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #44 - 06/04/09 at 17:58:28

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Matemax wrote on 06/01/09 at 09:01:53:

Position after 18.Be1

I would like to show some sample lines if Black plays immediately 18...g4 without any further preparation (Just remember that in the stem game White played 18.Bb4 Bf8 19.Nf2! to protect himself):

18. ... g4 19.Nb4 g3 20.hxg3
[20.h3 Bxh3 21.gxh3 Qd7]
20. ... fxg3 21.Bxg3
[21.Nc6 Qf8 22.Bxg3 Bh6 23.Rc3 Rg7 24.Bf2 (24.Bh2 Bf4 25.Qc2 Nh4 26.g4 Bxg4 27.fxg4 Bxh2+ 28.Kh1 (28.Kxh2 Nxg4+ 29.Kh3 Nf2+ 30.Rxf2 Qxf2) 28. ... Bf4 29.Rh3 Ng6) 24. ... Nf4 25.g4 Nxg4 26.fxg4 Nxe2+ 27.Qxe2 Bxg4]
21. ... Nh5 22.Be1 Bh6 23.Rc6 Be3+ 24.Bf2 Qg5 25.Nc2 Ngf4 26.Nxe3 Nh3+ 27.Kh2 Nxf2 28.Qc1 Qh4+ 29.Kg1 Nh3+ 30.gxh3 Rg7+ 31.Ng4 Qg3+ 32.Kh1 Qxh3+ 33.Kg1 Bd7

Play for both sides can certainly be improved - but don't trust the comps here!

I agree that comps dont get it right, but comps + humans get it

So here it is..

18..g4 19.Nb4 g3 20.Nc6 first displace the queen
20...Qf8 21.Bb4 and now

21...Bh8 22.Qd2 Ne8 23.Nd8 and
21...Ne8 22.Nba7 Bd7 23. Be1 Bh6 24.Rc2 Nh4 25. Nb5 and white is clearly better although black can find some tricks.

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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #43 - 06/04/09 at 02:10:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 03/24/08 at 19:55:18: Quote: Have a look at "King's Indian Defence - Mar Del Plata Variation" from Gligoric, page 31, where Gligoric actually gives a few game referneces to the night sac. I am not sure if 18. Bb4 is necessarily best. Gligoric, Rybka and Fritz all prefer 18. Qb3 with references to Sariyadzanov-Klimav, St. Petersburg 1997 and Biryukov-Solovyov, St. Petersburg 1999. 18...Rf7 would be my choice then instead of 18...g4 as in Sariyadzanov-Klimav and if 19.Bb4 then Bf8; on 19.Nc5 I think I can risk 19...Qc7 I dont have the Gligoric book - does he give this option? I'd like to know as well. 15...a6 seems the most straightforward attempt at refutation. 17...Qe8 definitely looks best.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #42 - 06/02/09 at 17:24:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Another risky try for Black is this: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.f3 Nf6 12.Bd2 f4 13.c5 g5 14.Rc1 Ng6 15.Nb5 g4!? Now 16. Ba5 seems critical when I had the idea of 16...Nxd5?!!? Some wild sample variations follow: 17. exd5 g3 18. h3 Qh4 19. Qd2 Bxh3! 20. gxh3 Qxh3 21. Bd1 e4! 22. fxe4 (22. Bc3 Bxc3 23. Rc3 exd3 is fine for Black) a6 23. Qg2 Qh4 24. Bc3 axb5 25. Bxg7 Kxg7 26. cxd6 cxd6 27. Rc7+ Kh8 when Black is fine. or 17. Qb3 g3 18. h3 Qh4 19. Bd1 Kh8! 20. exd5 (20. Qxd5 c6 21. Qxd6 cxb5 22. Rc2 Rf6) e4! 21. fxe4 Bxh3 22. gxh3 Qxh3 23. Rc2 a6 24. Bc3 axb5 25. Qxb5 Bxc3 26. bxc3 g2! 27. Rxg2 Nh4 -> Unfortunately I haven't been able to come up with anything against the clever 18. Rc4! in the first line, so I gave up on this one. However, I doubt someone would find 18. Rc4 OTB. Even if none of this works, it was a joy to sit and analyze for a while.


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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #41 - 06/01/09 at 09:01:53

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OK - let's try something with Mr. Shredder taking White (I mostly took the preferred lines) and Mr. Matemax as Black (no deep analyses, this would take days in such positions Wink

):

Position after 18.Be1

I would like to show some sample lines if Black plays immediately 18...g4 without any further preparation (Just remember that in the stem game White played 18.Bb4 Bf8 19.Nf2! to protect himself):

18. ... g4 19.Nb4 g3 20.hxg3
[20.h3 Bxh3 21.gxh3 Qd7]
20. ... fxg3 21.Bxg3
[21.Nc6 Qf8 22.Bxg3 Bh6 23.Rc3 Rg7 24.Bf2 (24.Bh2 Bf4 25.Qc2 Nh4 26.g4 Bxg4 27.fxg4 Bxh2+ 28.Kh1 (28.Kxh2 Nxg4+ 29.Kh3 Nf2+ 30.Rxf2 Qxf2) 28. ... Bf4 29.Rh3 Ng6) 24. ... Nf4 25.g4 Nxg4 26.fxg4 Nxe2+ 27.Qxe2 Bxg4]
21. ... Nh5 22.Be1 Bh6 23.Rc6 Be3+ 24.Bf2 Qg5 25.Nc2 Ngf4 26.Nxe3 Nh3+ 27.Kh2 Nxf2 28.Qc1 Qh4+ 29.Kg1 Nh3+ 30.gxh3 Rg7+ 31.Ng4 Qg3+ 32.Kh1 Qxh3+ 33.Kg1 Bd7

Play for both sides can certainly be improved - but don't trust the comps here!

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sssthepro Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 439 Joined: 12/16/06	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #40 - 06/01/09 at 08:34:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Did you read TonyRo's earlier post? He said 18...a6 19.Nc3 a5 (to stop Nb4) or 19.Na3 b5


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buffos YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 39 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #39 - 05/29/09 at 21:53:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have a very big tree of variations on the position (using IDEA) , but i think its irrelavant. You can use your Rybka and try moves for black. The position is very very simple for white. If you find ONE variation after Be1 that you can call it "complicated" i will gladly write down the refutation. There is no time for a King side attack. Since we have engines, just try to find ONE playable continuation. The black pawn on b6 is big difference on the whole position. Now the Nb4 -c6 maneuver paralyzes black, and no Kingside attack is possible.


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #38 - 05/29/09 at 14:38:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	buffos wrote on 05/29/09 at 04:59:15: I think also 17..cxd6 is losing. Not tactically but the position is +/- at least. For example after 18.Be1 and there are a lot of minor points that give white the clear advantage 1) The pawn is at b6 giving white the c6 square. 2) if black tries to push the Knight from b5 with a6 then he will have to face Bf2 Nb4 jumps and also the queen is stuck to d8 to protect b6 The position is a nightmare for black What's the point of generalizing in such a complicated position? Yes, Black has queenside weaknesses, welcome to the KID! It's just a waste of everyone's time to have to read "Oh yes, White's winning because Black has a weak c6-square, etc..." Prove it with some back and forth analysis and I'll be glad to accept this verdict, otherwise, don't waste your time punching those little keys.
	« Last Edit: 05/29/09 at 16:24:15 by TonyRo »

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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #37 - 05/29/09 at 07:27:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	buffos wrote on 05/29/09 at 04:59:15: I think also 17..cxd6 is losing. Not tactically but the position is +/- at least. For example after 18.Be1 and there are a lot of minor points that give white the clear advantage 1) The pawn is at b6 giving white the c6 square. 2) if black tries to push the Knight from b5 with a6 then he will have to face Bf2 Nb4 jumps and also the queen is stuck to d8 to protect b6 The position is a nightmare for black Isn't Black always lost on the queenside in the KI? With ...Nc6 in the opening you have already burned your bridges and restricted yourself to play for a kingside attack. That's what you have to do in the position after 18.Be1 as well - ...Bf8, ...Rg7,...g4,...g3,...Nh5,.... hoping to create enough counterplay. Hopefully White plays all his kingside defenders to the queenside to attack my pawns there and to occupy weak squares - I am going for the mate meanwhile - and if it doesn't work, well that's chess....


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buffos YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 39 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #36 - 05/29/09 at 04:59:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think also 17..cxd6 is losing. Not tactically but the position is +/- at least. For example after 18.Be1 and there are a lot of minor points that give white the clear advantage 1) The pawn is at b6 giving white the c6 square. 2) if black tries to push the Knight from b5 with a6 then he will have to face Bf2 Nb4 jumps and also the queen is stuck to d8 to protect b6 The position is a nightmare for black


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #35 - 05/16/09 at 11:11:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	TonyRo wrote on 04/29/09 at 13:35:45: Your line actually transposes to mine, so I'm glad we're in agreeance about the evaluation. What happens after 28. Kf2? I think 28...Nh5 exchanging the knight for the dark squared bishop looks good - Black has compensation cause he dominates the dark squares. 29.Rh1 Ng3 and White has to play 30.Kg3 cause 30.Rh6 fails to ...Ne4, 29.Bh2 is no option after 29...Qh4 and White may ask himself what the king is doing on f2


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FightingDragon Senior Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 267 Joined: 05/12/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #34 - 05/16/09 at 10:25:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't know. From my feeling black should have enough compensation, but it's very difficult to prove it against Rybka.


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #33 - 04/29/09 at 13:35:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Your line actually transposes to mine, so I'm glad we're in agreeance about the evaluation. What happens after 28. Kf2?


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FightingDragon Senior Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 267 Joined: 05/12/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #32 - 04/29/09 at 08:06:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thank you for the answers! First I think that accepting the knight in either way is very risky for black, white gets very good compensation. So it seems black has to accept the weakening of his queenside and play 15. ... Rf7 16.Ba5 b6 17.cd6: cd6: Now I think 18.Be1 is stronger than 18.Bb4, because the purpose of the move is twofold: The bishop helps to defend the kingside and leaves b4 for the knight, so that Nd3-b4-c6 is a strong threat. 18.Be1 a6 19.Nc3 a5 (I think it is necessary) 20.Nb5 g4 21.Rc6 Bf8 22.Bf2 Bb7 23.Rc3 g3 24.hg3: Nh5!? (after 24. ... hg3: 25.Bg3: Nh5 white can play 26.Bh2! which looks strange but keeps control of f4 and poses problems to black, e.g. 26. ... Ngf4 27.Nf4: Nf4: 28.Bf4: ef4: 29.Nd4 and the knight will come to e6) 25.gf4: (25.g4?! Ng3 looks dangerous for white with Qh4 and ideas of Bf8-e7-h4 to follow; 25.Qe1 fg3: 26.Bg3: Ba6 27.a4 Bb5: 28.ab5: Bh6 or 28. ... Ng3: 29.Qg3: Bh6 with chances because of the opposite-colored bishops) Ngf4: 26.Nf4: Nf4: 27.Bg3 Bh6 28.Bh2 Rg7 29.g3 Qh4 30.Qe1 Qh3 31.Qf2 Ne2: 32.Qe2: Ba6 33.a4 Bf4 34.Qg2 Qh6 35.Rc6 Nb5: 34.ab5: Be3 and black has good compensation. So I hope black can get accepable play somewhere here, otherwise he will have to search for improvements much earlier. At least this new game shows that it's also not that easy for white: [Event "New Delhi open"] [Date "2009.??.??"] [White "Bhat, Vinay S"] [Black "Sai, Krishna G V"] [Result "0-1"] [WhiteElo "2495"] [BlackElo "2162"] [ECO "E98"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Ne8 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 cxd6 18. Bb4 Bf8 19. Nf2 a6 20. Na3 h5 21. Nc4 a5 22. Be1 Bd7 23. a4 Rg7 24. h3 Nh8 25. Na3 Nf7 26. Nb5 Rc8 27. Rxc8 Qxc8 28. Nd3 g4 29. Bh4 Ng5 30. hxg4 hxg4 31. Kf2 gxf3 32. gxf3 Nh3 33. Ke1 Nh5 34. Bf2 Qd8 35. Kd2 Rg2 36. Kc3 Ng3 37. Bxg3 fxg3 38. f4 exf4 39. Kb3 Qg5 40. Nd4 Bg7 41. Nf3 Qg6 42. Nd2 Rxe2 43. Qxe2 g2 44. Nc4 gxf1Q 45. Qxf1 Qxe4 46. Nxb6 Bf5 0-1


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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1846 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #31 - 04/28/09 at 16:40:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'll give this thing a shot! After: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.f3 Nf6 12.Bd2 f4 13.c5 g5 14.Rc1 Ng6 15.Nb5 Rf7 16. Ba5 b6 17. cxd6 I think 17...cxd6 is definitely best. Now: 18. Bb4 and now: 18...Bf8 19. a4 White has other moves, for instance 19. Qa4 a6 20. Qa3 Ne8 21. Be1 Bd7 22. Nc3 g4 23. fxg4 Qg5 24. h3 h5! 19...a6 20. Na3 20. Nc3 comes to mind, when one funny idea for Black is 20...Rg7!? 21. Nf2 Nh4 22. g3 g4!? intending 23. fxg4 h5! 24. gxh4 hxg4 with a strong attack. 20...g4! 21. Be1 g3 22. hxg3 Nh5! 23. gxf4 Ngxf4 24. g4 24. Nxf4 Nxf4 25. Rc6 Qg5 26. g4 h5 with a strong attack. 24...Nxd3 25. Qxd3 Nf4 26. Qc2 Qg5 when Black has a strong attack. Now let's check out 18. Be1: 18...a6 19. Nc3! 19. Na3 b5! 20. Nb4 g4! 21. Nc6 Qf8 22. Nb1 g3 23. hxg3 Nh5 24. g4 Ng3 25. a4 Bf6 26. Qd2 Bh4! and Black has a strong attack. Rybka's suggestion of 22. Nb1 is maybe too slow. 19...a5!? 20. Nb5 g4 21. Rc6 Bf8 22. Bf2 Bb7! looks okay for Black. Here's a long sample line. 23. Rc3 g3 24. hxg3 fxg3 25. Bxg3 Nh5 26. Bf2 Ngf4 27. Nxf4 Nxf4 28. Bg3 Bh6 29. Bh2 Rg7 30. g3 Qh4 31. Qe1 Qh3 32. Qf2 Nxe2+ 33. Qxe2 Ba6! 34. a4 Bf4 35. Qg2 Qh6 36. Rd1 Be3+ 37. Kh1 Bf4 38. g4 Bxb5 39. axb5 Qh4!, intending ...h5, with the initiative. Surely there are improvements lurking everywhere, but this position seems okay for Black, at least on the superficial surface. Can anyone else tell I'm bored at work?


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GMGolubev Junior Member Offline ChessPublishing KID Posts: 52 Location: Odessa UKRAINE Joined: 12/23/08 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #30 - 04/28/09 at 14:48:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	I found in my records that in 2006 (after my book was published) for some reason I analysed 15.Nb5 Rf7 16.Ba5 b6 17.cxd6 bxa5 17.cxb6 cxb6 18.dxc7 Qf8 and now 19.Qa4! (etc. etc.) and did not like how Black is doing. I see that White won two games in this line since then. I guess that this is a problem? For the moment, I should rather suggest (if anything) 17...cxd6 (Rabar-Udovcic, 1957 is also mentioned in my book). Possibly I will analyse this line later this year, for subscribers. In the next update there will be another stuff.


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FightingDragon Senior Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 267 Joined: 05/12/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #29 - 04/27/09 at 20:26:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	What's the latest word in this variation? As Ametanoitos is discussing the KID again, perhaps there is an antidote? Perhaps I will have to defend the black side of this next weekend, I would like to hear your opinion on this variation!


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #28 - 03/24/08 at 19:55:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Have a look at "King's Indian Defence - Mar Del Plata Variation" from Gligoric, page 31, where Gligoric actually gives a few game referneces to the night sac. I am not sure if 18. Bb4 is necessarily best. Gligoric, Rybka and Fritz all prefer 18. Qb3 with references to Sariyadzanov-Klimav, St. Petersburg 1997 and Biryukov-Solovyov, St. Petersburg 1999. 18...Rf7 would be my choice then instead of 18...g4 as in Sariyadzanov-Klimav and if 19.Bb4 then Bf8; on 19.Nc5 I think I can risk 19...Qc7 I dont have the Gligoric book - does he give this option?


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Gueler Full Member Offline Posts: 129 Location: Boston Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #27 - 03/24/08 at 19:42:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 03/24/08 at 10:21:05: As I never ever give up I had a look at "The New Classical Kings Indian" (John Nunn) and found on p. 305: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.f3 Nf6 12.Bd2 f4 13.c5 g5 14.Rc1 Ng6 15.Nb5 15...a6 16.cxd6 axb5 17.dxc7 Qd7 18.Bb4 Ne8! 19.Bf8 Bf8 with the idea of Bd6 and good play for Black Are we back in business with good old John ? Matemax, Have a look at "King's Indian Defence - Mar Del Plata Variation" from Gligoric, page 31, where Gligoric actually gives a few game referneces to the night sac. I am not sure if 18. Bb4 is necessarily best. Gligoric, Rybka and Fritz all prefer 18. Qb3 with references to Sariyadzanov-Klimov, St. Petersburg 1997 and Biryukov-Solovyov, St. Petersburg 1999. Btw, Gligoric and Huzman both recommend 17. ...Qe8 instead of 17. ... Qd7
	« Last Edit: 03/24/08 at 22:54:25 by Gueler »

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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #26 - 03/24/08 at 10:21:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	As I never ever give up I had a look at "The New Classical Kings Indian" (John Nunn) and found on p. 305: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.f3 Nf6 12.Bd2 f4 13.c5 g5 14.Rc1 Ng6 15.Nb5 15...a6 16.cxd6 axb5 17.dxc7 Qd7 18.Bb4 Ne8! 19.Bf8 Bf8 with the idea of Bd6 and good play for Black Are we back in business with good old John ?


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DoubledPawns Senior Member Offline 1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4 Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5# Posts: 283 Joined: 02/01/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #25 - 03/18/08 at 23:38:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 03/18/08 at 20:29:24: My friends. i agree to the most of your posts.White can play c5 before Rc1, but that doesn't change anything because we are discussing a theoritical position. About theory now. I totally agree that black can play 7...Na6 or 11...Kh8. In the second case practice has proven that white is a little better. Black is not losing by forse here (as he does in the line i lost to!) but even Shirov claims here an advantage for white (11...Kh8 is Shirov's idea). As for 7...Na6 i'm very dissapointed because Khalifman's analysis is very accurate giving white the better chances also. My point is that KID is a great practical weapon. But the truth is truth my friends, and that is that Black has to play passively just not to lose by forse! I have played over 200 KID games with great success but i'm not blind! I see a problem when this is in front of my eyes! I learnt things from the KID, i raised my level of chess understanding (it helped me to play better the Ruy Lopez!!!), but now i'm from the other side, White! If you'll keep playing the KID against me you'll get punished from sure! (the same goes for the Dragon!) I'd agree that one of the main advantages of playing the King's Indian is that you can clobber the King's Indian when you face it yourself (which comes in quite handy when the King's Indian is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, opening below GM level). Once you start beating higher rated players who have the bravery to trot out the King's Indian against you, give it up as Black and play something else.

	Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #24 - 03/18/08 at 20:29:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	My friends. i agree to the most of your posts.White can play c5 before Rc1, but that doesn't change anything because we are discussing a theoritical position. About theory now. I totally agree that black can play 7...Na6 or 11...Kh8. In the second case practice has proven that white is a little better. Black is not losing by forse here (as he does in the line i lost to!) but even Shirov claims here an advantage for white (11...Kh8 is Shirov's idea). As for 7...Na6 i'm very dissapointed because Khalifman's analysis is very accurate giving white the better chances also. My point is that KID is a great practical weapon. But the truth is truth my friends, and that is that Black has to play passively just not to lose by forse! I have played over 200 KID games with great success but i'm not blind! I see a problem when this is in front of my eyes! I learnt things from the KID, i raised my level of chess understanding (it helped me to play better the Ruy Lopez!!!), but now i'm from the other side, White! If you'll keep playing the KID against me you'll get punished from sure! (the same goes for the Dragon!)


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battleangel Ex Member	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #23 - 03/18/08 at 19:39:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	11. ... Nf6 is not really good I think. 11. ... Kh8 seems to be better, followed by Nf6 and c6 or c5


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Bibs YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 2342 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #22 - 03/18/08 at 12:12:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Agree with markovich here. Out of theory asap. A Torre/Tromp/London will sort em out sharpish.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #21 - 03/18/08 at 12:06:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bonsai wrote on 03/18/08 at 07:01:19: DoubledPawns wrote on 03/18/08 at 03:30:52: Whereas for Black, he has to set up his attack in the most accurate move order, since any inaccuracy will leave him in a very passive position. And if he misplays one move in the attack, then White will obtain a clear, if not winning, advantage. That may be correct when one looks at the objective evaluation of the position, but the good thing for black is that even if he ought to be lost he still has attacking chances on the kingside. I found that as white I needed to invest a lot of time into getting a feeling for these positions in order to make sure I didn't get into trouble on the kingside all the time - in no other opening did players rated 500 Elo below me end up getting such decent play and chances against me. The difficult thing for white goes beyone knowing to push c4-c5, it's what to do afterwards and I can only recommend all white players to invest a couple of days into learning the right plans. Or, as one might say, Black is lost, but he has adequate compensation. But why on earth do you give players rated 500 points below you the chance to play Black's side of the KID main lines?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Bonsai God Member Offline Posts: 622 Joined: 03/13/04 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #20 - 03/18/08 at 07:01:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	DoubledPawns wrote on 03/18/08 at 03:30:52: Whereas for Black, he has to set up his attack in the most accurate move order, since any inaccuracy will leave him in a very passive position. And if he misplays one move in the attack, then White will obtain a clear, if not winning, advantage. That may be correct when one looks at the objective evaluation of the position, but the good thing for black is that even if he ought to be lost he still has attacking chances on the kingside. I found that as white I needed to invest a lot of time into getting a feeling for these positions in order to make sure I didn't get into trouble on the kingside all the time - in no other opening did players rated 500 Elo below me end up getting such decent play and chances against me. The difficult thing for white goes beyone knowing to push c4-c5, it's what to do afterwards and I can only recommend all white players to invest a couple of days into learning the right plans.


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DoubledPawns Senior Member Offline 1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4 Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5# Posts: 283 Joined: 02/01/08	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #19 - 03/18/08 at 03:30:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Some KID authors think that the position after 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 is easier to play for Black because of his attacking chances on the kingside. However, I disagree - White has the simple plan of playing for c5, forcing some sort of concession and playing sound positional moves to exploit his advantage on the queenside. True, White will probably need to defend accurately on the kingside, but this is obviously much easier when White has already won the battle on the queenside. Whereas for Black, he has to set up his attack in the most accurate move order, since any inaccuracy will leave him in a very passive position. And if he misplays one move in the attack, then White will obtain a clear, if not winning, advantage. Being in a KID forum, some people may claim that I am being overly pessimistic about Black's chances in the main line. I can understand why - Black often obtains the initiative on the kingside - but from personal experience, White's plans on the queenside are very simple and easy to understand, whereas Black's kingside attack must be conducted with the utmost accuracy. True, White also has to defend very accurately, but I have found that the people playing White happen to defend very accurately! I used to play the KID myself ages ago as Black, by the way. Even though the main line seems much easier to play for White, I am not pessimistic about the KID in general. Play the 7...Na6 variation - the struggle is more strategic and positional, and Black does not have to play super-accurately to get a good position. Conclusion: Don't scrap the King's Indian entirely. But definitely scrap the 7...Nc6 variation. Only Radjabov can get away with such a provocative move - and even he has lost to Shirov in this variation (Linares 04 and Linares 08).

	Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #18 - 03/18/08 at 02:58:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	I had the impression that White usually plays 11. f3 (or 10. f3 and 11. Nd3), although there Black could play ...f4 while leaving his knight on d7 (no Bg4 for White), because 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 allows 11...fe which was considered to lead to equality. It seems opinion is divided on that, though.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #17 - 03/18/08 at 02:19:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	17.cxd6 cxd6 gives the same position which arises after 17.cxb6 cxb6, but in the latter line Black has the option of playing 17...axb6 so White's 17.cxd6 is a superior move at least in this sense. In games I can find after 17...cxd6 White seems to be doing well with either 18.Be1 (3 wins, 2 draws) or 18.Bb4 (2 wins, 1 draw). For example: 18.Be1 a6 19.Nc3 h5 [19...Bd7 20.Nb4 b5 21.Nc6 Bxc6 22.dxc6 Rc8 23.a4 Rxc6 24.axb5 axb5 25.Bf2 b4 26.Qa4 Rc8 27.Qxb4 Kh8 28.Nb5 Rxc1 29.Rxc1 Bf8 30.Qb3 d5 31.Nc3 Rc7 32.exd5 Bc5 33.Bxc5 Rxc5 34.Rd1 Ne7 35.Ne4 Nxe4 36.fxe4 Nc8 37.d6 Nxd6 38.Qe6 Qb6 39.Kf1 Rc6 40.Qxe5+ Kg8 41.Qxg5+ 1–0 Pergericht (2275)-Winterstein (2235), Luxembourg 1987] 20.Nb4 Bh6 21.Na4 Rb7 22.Bf2 Nd7 23.Bxa6 Rxa6 24.Nxa6 Nc5 25.N6xc5 bxc5 26.b4 Rxb4 27.Rb1 g4 28.Rxb4 cxb4 29.Kh1 g3 30.hxg3 fxg3 31.Bxg3 Ba6 32.Rf2 Be3 33.Rc2 Nf4 34.Qe1 Bd4 35.Bh4 Qa5 36.Qg3+ Kf7 37.Qg5 Bc3 38.Qe7+ 1–0 Yuferov (2450)-Dydyshko (2415), Minsk 1978. BTW, I think Andrew Brett's suggestion of 13...c5 looks like a logical attempt to prove that White's 13.Rc1 was just a waste of time.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Lou_Cyber Full Member Offline "I didn´t understand that. It must be true." Posts: 237 Location: Rendsburg Joined: 01/28/05 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #16 - 03/17/08 at 23:17:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 03/12/08 at 13:29:37: Something wrong with 17..cxd6 followed by some backrow defending of the d6-pawn? This still sounds like a sensible plan to me, but hasn´t been debated so far.

	If you try, you may lose. If you don´t try, you have lost.
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ANDREW BRETT God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 622 Joined: 07/07/06	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #15 - 03/15/08 at 07:51:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos First of all don't give up on the KID ! There are other lines worth playing since your not forced to go 12...f4 -eg 12.. kh8 is a pretty decent alternative. Several points on your game. 13 Rc1 is seems good for Black as you can go c5 and then white will be a tempo down on 11..c5 (Fischer) lines as white's going to go Rb1 at some stage. 13 c5 is the correct move order . Perhaps you can post the whole game- no matter how painful it is.


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #14 - 03/15/08 at 06:59:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 03/14/08 at 18:44:23: I'm really sorry my friends, i really want to make the line playable for black but..... Let's see, firstly 20..g4 21.Rc6!! with the idea Nd6 seems winning even after 21..Bd7 22.Qc2! (crazy stuff!) After 19..Nxd5 20.exd5 e4 21.Nc5! e3!? 22.Qc2 i was not able to survive another 5-6 moves. OK maybe 21..e3 is not best but where is the attack? The lesser evil is 19..Nd7 but i discovered that 20.Qxa5 followed by 21.Rc6!! again and 22.Nxa7 or Nd6 tells a bitter story for black..... I'll ask Grivas (a KID specialist) when i see him if he has a secret answer (i hope i'll see him soon!), but till then i'm very pessimistic! - you may be right - I looked at 21.Rc6, the best I found was ending up a clear pawn down after some exchanges with no prospects. Playing 19...Nd7 leaves Black without any counterplay - there are no more g4-ideas. Perhaps Black has to deviate earlier - e.g. 15...a6


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Dragan Glas Senior Member Offline "If I, like Solomon, ... could have my wish - " Posts: 424 Location: Ireland Joined: 06/25/06 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #13 - 03/14/08 at 22:51:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Greetings, I think that my earlier suggestion, whilst interesting, is a little late in the game to be looking for a way to get counterplay. It seems to me that the better option would be to look for an improvement earlier in the game. For example, 14..., c6!?; 15. cd, Qxd6; 16. dc, Nxc6; 17. Nb5, Qb8; 18. Nb4, a6; 19. Na3, Bd7; 20. Nxc6, Bxc6; 21. Nc4, Kh8; 22. Nb6, Qa7; 23. Qb3, Nd7; 24. Ba6, Bb5; 25. Bxb5, Nxb6 - needless to say, this is just a example! Kindest regards, Dragan Glas


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #12 - 03/14/08 at 18:44:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm really sorry my friends, i really want to make the line playable for black but..... Let's see, firstly 20..g4 21.Rc6!! with the idea Nd6 seems winning even after 21..Bd7 22.Qc2! (crazy stuff!) After 19..Nxd5 20.exd5 e4 21.Nc5! e3!? 22.Qc2 i was not able to survive another 5-6 moves. OK maybe 21..e3 is not best but where is the attack? The lesser evil is 19..Nd7 but i discovered that 20.Qxa5 followed by 21.Rc6!! again and 22.Nxa7 or Nd6 tells a bitter story for black..... I'll ask Grivas (a KID specialist) when i see him if he has a secret answer (i hope i'll see him soon!), but till then i'm very pessimistic!


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #11 - 03/14/08 at 13:06:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Junior 10 and Hiarcs 11 easily refute black's attack Do they give a winning line or is the evaluation just stable (lets say about + 2,0 / +2.5 for White)? If its the second case then they position should be evaluated as unclear or dynamically balanced and not as lost. If you have a clear winning line for White please post it - I played around with my program (shredder 11) after 20...g4 and the comp just made typical "I dont have a plan" - moves: Like moving knigth forward and backward. I'd like to give a second sample variation to show what I mean: 20...g4 21.Qd1 (stopping f3-ideas for the moment and preferred by the comp giving +2.5 here!) a6 22.Na3 h5 23.Nc5 (this is not the move the comp wants to play - but I think the critical plan as shown at the beginning of this thread - shredder wants Nb1 )) Qd6 24.Ne6 Qb6+ 25.Kh1 Bxe6 26.Rc6 Qb7 27.Rxe6 Nf8 28.Rc6 Rxc7 29.Rxc7 Qxc7 and Black is still fighting. 19...Nd5 (Dragan Glas) is an even more radical solution to the position (but I really like it...) - giving up another pawn but opening up the diagonal for the dark squared bishop - after 20.exd5 e4 21.fxe4 g4 22.d6 Bh6 we need someone from "Planet Shirov" around here - if you win this with Black you get the brilliancy prize for sure I'd also like to add, that I think it worth trying your own White moves with the comp in this position and I am sure (cause it happens to me all the time), that you will be surprised how easy the evaluation of positions like this can change with only one move. If you for example think of the Nc5-plan and you go for 21.Nc5 - 21...f3 will follow and we are down on +1.25 for White but an attack for Black and I dare to say that White has to be very careful not to lose within the next 5-10 moves. Another natural move 22.Bd1 is already close to losing immediatly!


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Dragan Glas

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could have my wish -
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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #10 - 03/14/08 at 00:10:20

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Greetings,

Matemax wrote on 03/12/08 at 15:28:35:

As a KI-player I dont want go down without a fight, therefore I would take a deep breath and after

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 O-O 5.e4 d6 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.Rc1 g5 14.c5 Ng6 15.Nb5 Rf7 16.Ba5 b6 17.cxd6 bxa5 18.dxc7 Qf8 19.Qd2

play 19...Ne4!? 20.fe4 g4
Of course with a dramatic gesture and a confident look at my opponent.

The position after g4 is a typical KI mess for me Wink

White has won the battle on the queenside (as he ever does), but Black is starting his kingside attack. Its not a question of correct or not but of practical chances - just a naive sample variation:

21.d6 f3 22.Bd1 Bh6 23.Qxa5 Be3+ 24.Rf2 Nf4 25.Nxe5 Nh3+ 26.gxh3 Qg7 27.Kh1 g3 28.hxg3 Qxg3 and Black wins!

I dont let myself get distracted by comp evaluations after g4 - they are all in clear favour for White. The question is if White can really improve his position and win or if he just has to wait what happens with blacks attack. The kingside attack in the Kingsindian is always outside the comps scope - "he" (the comp) only understands it when its too late.

Listen to your Kingsindian heart Cool

or tell me the sac is simply rubbish Grin

Personally, I was thinking of 19..., Nxd5!?!; 20 ed, e4 (opening both the a1-h8 and g1-a7 diagonals for the Bg7 and Qf8 respectively - and the c1-h6 diagonal will open following ...,g4 threatening ..., Bh6) with ..., f3 to follow - the Be2 would have few squares to go; gf allows ..., Bh3 and so on... a typical "KID Chaos" position. Roll Eyes

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas

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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #9 - 03/13/08 at 21:14:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	18.Bxf3 is much better than 18.gxf3. Also Soloviov's analysis is a bit old and can be improved easily. @Matemax: I'm one of the few people that don't get distracted by the computer evaluations! I think that your suggestion is very good, very KID spirited and to the wright direction but Junior 10 and Hiarcs 11 easily refute black's attack after many hours of trying to show them what a real brain can do (my brain of course!) Objectively i think that black has to accept a slightly inferior position with one of the ...c5 ideas (as Fisher used to play). If i was a 1.d4 player i would love to have the 15.Nb5 line in my repertoir!


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FightingDragon Senior Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 267 Joined: 05/12/04	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #8 - 03/13/08 at 10:32:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	What's wrong with 15. ... g4!? ? There are some old games which go 16.cd6: cd6: 17.Nc7 gf3:! 18.gf3: Bh3 19.Na8: Ne4:! 20.fe4: Qg5+ 21.Kf2 Qh4 with a perpetual check. Does white have improvements here? I once had the Geller book about the king's indian and remeber reading about a similar variation from a Tal game. As I searched my database, it turned out that Tal had the position after 15. ... Rf7 16.cd6: cd6: 17.Qc2 g4 18.Nc7 gf6: several times, but of course 16.Ba5! is an improvement for white here. Another option is 15.Nb5 a6 16.cd6: ab5: 17.dc7: Qe8 18.Nc5 b6 19.Ne6 Be6: 20.de6: Qe6: 21.Bb5 Kh8 which is given as unclear by Soloviov.


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Matemax

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Re: I lost my interest after this....
Reply #7 - 03/12/08 at 15:28:35

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As a KI-player I dont want go down without a fight, therefore I would take a deep breath and after

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 O-O 5.e4 d6 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.Rc1 g5 14.c5 Ng6 15.Nb5 Rf7 16.Ba5 b6 17.cxd6 bxa5 18.dxc7 Qf8 19.Qd2

play 19...Ne4!? 20.fe4 g4

Of course with a dramatic gesture and a confident look at my opponent.

The position after g4 is a typical KI mess for me Wink

White has won the battle on the queenside (as he ever does), but Black is starting his kingside attack. Its not a question of correct or not but of practical chances - just a naive sample variation:

21.d6 f3 22.Bd1 Bh6 23.Qxa5 Be3+ 24.Rf2 Nf4 25.Nxe5 Nh3+ 26.gxh3 Qg7 27.Kh1 g3 28.hxg3 Qxg3 and Black wins!

I dont let myself get distracted by comp evaluations after g4 - they are all in clear favour for White. The question is if White can really improve his position and win or if he just has to wait what happens with blacks attack. The kingside attack in the Kingsindian is always outside the comps scope - "he" (the comp) only understands it when its too late.

Listen to your Kingsindian heart Cool

or tell me the sac is simply rubbish Grin

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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #6 - 03/12/08 at 13:29:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Something wrong with 17..cxd6 followed by some backrow defending of the d6-pawn?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #5 - 03/12/08 at 13:14:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	15...Rf7 16.Ba5! b6 17.cxd6! of course! 17..bxa5 18.dxc7 Qf8 19.Qd2! g4 20.Nc5! and white is winning! I don't know how black can stop the Nc5 idea. I tried for about a week (!) but i did not find a satisfactory line for black. So, what do you think? Let's start playing the Gruenfeld all together!


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #4 - 03/12/08 at 09:38:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, Was curious if this was one of those lines where black could try to slow down white's queenside play with c5, maybe 11.Bd2 c5. I don't play the KID at the moment, so not sure what factors black should look for in doing this, or carrying on with kingside play. Bye John S


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Lou_Cyber Full Member Offline "I didn´t understand that. It must be true." Posts: 237 Location: Rendsburg Joined: 01/28/05 Gender:	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #3 - 03/12/08 at 08:37:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	So far I just had a look at the book from Golubev and a quick glance at a internet database. I only found one game of higher rated players: A 15....a6 was convincingly crushed with a knight sac: [Event "Chigorin mem open"] [Site "St Petersburg RUS"] [Date "1997.??.??"] [White "Shariyazdanov,A"] [Black "Klimov,S"] [WhiteElo "2465"] [BlackElo "2355"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 O-O 5. Be2 d6 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. Rc1 Ng6 15. Nb5 a6 16. cxd6 axb5 17. dxc7 Qd7 18. Qb3 g4 19. Bb4 Rf7 20. d6 g3 21. Rfd1 gxh2+ 22. Kxh2 b6 23. Ba3 Qe8 24. Nb4 Be6 25. Bxb5 Bd7 26. Bc4 Nh8 27. Nd5 Nxd5 28. Bxd5 b5 29. Bxa8 Qxa8 30. c8=Q+ 1-0 B 15...g4 is the move we want to play, but after 16.cxd cxd 17.Nc7 whites attack seems to be faster. C 15...Rf7 looks good and standard to me. LeeRoth pointed out that 16.cxd transposes to the mainline. After 16.Ba5 b6 17.cxb why not axb 18.Bishop moves and 18....g4 searching for counterplay on the kingside? So far I don´t see why black is worse off than in the mainlines.

	If you try, you may lose. If you don´t try, you have lost.
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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #2 - 03/12/08 at 02:34:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 03/11/08 at 22:54:01: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 o-o 5.e4 d6 6.Be2 e5 7.o-o Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.Rc1 g5 14.c5 Ng6 and now GM Svetyskin played against me 15.Nb5! This line is great for white! I followed the Golubev's suggestion and i was murdered! Does anyone want to discuss about this? I have lost my interest in the KID after this. I'll continue with the Grunfeld OK, I'll bite. What happened next? Assume you played 15..Rf7 when 16.cxd6 cxd6 is a main line thought to be OK for Black, and 16.Ba5 b6 17.cxb6 is an interesting try.


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Bibs YaBB Moderator Offline Posts: 2342 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: I lost my interest after this.... Reply #1 - 03/12/08 at 01:24:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	I was expecting a particularly horrendous tale of a lady with poor personal hygiene.
	« Last Edit: 03/12/08 at 12:37:18 by Bibs »

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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	I lost my interest after this.... 03/11/08 at 22:54:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 o-o 5.e4 d6 6.Be2 e5 7.o-o Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.Rc1 g5 14.c5 Ng6 and now GM Svetyskin played against me 15.Nb5! This line is great for white! I followed the Golubev's suggestion and i was murdered! Does anyone want to discuss about this? I have lost my interest in the KID after this. I'll continue with the Grunfeld


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