Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Taking risks? (Read 10630 times)
Stigma
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #26 - 02/07/10 at 12:32:14
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About Shirov-Smeets: 

I know I would personally be more likely to miss a strong defence against a lower-rated opponent, maybe the same goes for Shirov. Also precisely the focus on maintaining winning chances may have blinded him a bit to the real prospect of losing. And finally he may have got carried away by his string of wins, starting to subconsciously think of himself as invincible.

Though again, GMs are GMs in part because of their great practical strength and so anyone playing in super-tournaments should be more immune to these psychological problem than average players. Maybe it was just too much for him to calculate on that day. I don't remember what Shirov's clock situation was, Smeets was certainly drifting into time trouble (a frequent problem for him at Corus).
  

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TN
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #25 - 02/07/10 at 12:01:54
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I think that the level of risk taken by one of the world's top players is usually closely related to a) tournament situation b) level/rating of opponent c) clock times/time control d) psychological factors.
  

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #24 - 02/07/10 at 12:00:36
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Bumping this thread, since this thread is far more deserving of being on the 10 Most Recent Posts than the spammed garbage.

I have a question, though: Do you think Shirov would have taken the same risk that he did against Smeets, if he was playing a 2700 instead? Or a 2750 for that matter? 

  

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Stigma
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #23 - 02/07/10 at 10:13:17
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I see your point Smyslov_Fan, but it seems you're limiting risk-taking to the player's subjective experience at the board, i.e. Shirov didn't feel he was risking much against Smeets at Corus (I assume that's the Petroff game you mentioned) because he miscalculated and didn't see the danger he was in.

But there is also objective risk. When GMs enter complicated, tactical positions where mistakes are more likely to happen, most of them are humble enough to admit that at any moment they may miss some complicated line that Rybka or Fritz will point out to any patzer following the game. And if you're allowing a winning tactic that Rybka would spot, there's a chance that an on-form GM opponent will also spot it. 

So objectively, Shirov was taking a risk against Smeets, and Anand was taking a risk against Shirov when he allowed the winning ...Ng3! Because even GMs miscalculate and make mistakes, entering any kind of complicated middlegame or endgame involves risk compared to just playing out a theoretical draw, and they take that into account when preparing for a game. But for players like Shirov and Topalov going for complicated positions is still the practical decision (the one that maximizes expected value, in the language of economics), because that is where they are strongest compared to their peers. They realize fully that they will likely lose more games than a Kramnik or a Leko, but when on form they will also win more. It's a calculated risk, not a reckless gamble.

And that's what I believe Avni was onto: GMs will make decisions that risk losing the game when that is still the best practical chance of maximising the score. The overall result is less risk-taking than your average hacker. But unless they're taking short draws every game they can never play without any risk at all.
« Last Edit: 02/07/10 at 12:48:30 by Stigma »  

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #22 - 02/06/10 at 19:35:18
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I've read this thread twice now. I shouldn't have been surprised that the initial reaction to Tony's statement that he doesn't take risk was to try to interpret his meaning away.  This seems a classic example of cognitive dissonance.

I take Tony's comment at face value. Computers don't take risks when they play chess.  They try to maximise the position at every turn.  I have seen Carlsen's games and he takes the same approach.  In fact, it seems that most strong players take this approach.  

When a grandmaster takes a risk, it stands out.  Shirov, when he was discussing a Petroff game that he won due to an unsound sacrifce, repeatedly spoke of trying to keep the game alive.  He did not speak in terms of taking chances or risk, but of maintaining chances in the position for white to win.  He considered his winning combination to be a mistake.  

Even for a player such as Shirov, one who is known for risky play (and for Tal before him), he does not want to play bad moves even if they win.  While all these grandmasters probably define risk in slightly different ways, they probably also all consider risk-taking in a chess game to be bad form and only something to do when the position is already teetering on the brink of being lost.

  
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #21 - 02/06/10 at 15:15:21
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/05/10 at 13:43:45:
I've always had the impression that many (though certainly not all) GMs play primarily not to lose, rather than primarily to win, because getting a mix of wins and draws gives better results than a mix of wins and losses


Maybe I should have just said that GMs maximise their chances - not necessarily of winning every game, but of scoring as many points as they realistically can given the level of opposition and their own strengths and weaknesses. If a GM plays in opens a high percentage of wins is expected, less so in a super-tournament where even the tournament winner often has more draws than wins.
  

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #20 - 02/05/10 at 17:22:34
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B.e. Kasparov: He had never beaten Karpov, if he had not learned to keep the games drawn if necessary. The "risks" he run were very well prepared.

I just saw the difference myself in an online game 45/45 against a FM. He played a variation I had prepared just two weeks before the game and something very seldom happened: I knew a game with white from Ivanchuk till ~move 20 and had looked fast at some of Steinitz's games in this line. So I took the "risk" of letting my opponent destroy my pawn shield via Bg4xNf3 - g2xf3, went to h1 with the King and doubled rooks on the g-file.

Maybe this is no risk in the Steinitz deferred for a master. For me it was risky - I'm too weak to judge all the positions really arising in my play.

Maybe that's simple explanation for Avruk's findings. GM's work so long till they do play only positions they can judge (really mostly) while amateurs on club level slip in almost every game in positions somewhat new.
  

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SWJediknight
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #19 - 02/05/10 at 13:43:45
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I've always had the impression that many (though certainly not all) GMs play primarily not to lose, rather than primarily to win, because getting a mix of wins and draws gives better results than a mix of wins and losses- similar to the "practical" philosophy in football of using a 4-5-1 formation, playing with the draw in hand and hoping for a 1-0 (take Jose Mourinho's Chelsea a few years back for example).  Many articles in Chess Monthly in particular have given this impression, with Peter Leko particularly noted for such a tendency.

That said, I'd certainly agree that Kasparov usually played to maximise his chances of winning rather than playing not to lose, and there are other examples.

I also get the impression that the higher your level of play the less likely it is that risk-taking will work, and the more likely it is that encouraging the opponent to take risks will be beneficial.
  
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #18 - 02/05/10 at 13:29:04
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Stigma wrote on 02/05/10 at 13:17:05:
One of the conclusions drawn by Avni in "The Grandmaster's Mind", where he interviewed and tested Israeli top players, was that GMs are ruthlessly practical in their approach, compared to average players. They play to maximise their chance of scoring the full point, not to gamble and realize dreams of wild slugfests and brilliancies.

Yes, I would definitely agree with that.
  
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #17 - 02/05/10 at 13:17:05
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One of the conclusions drawn by Avni in "The Grandmaster's Mind", where he interviewed and tested Israeli top players, was that GMs are ruthlessly practical in their approach, compared to average players. They play to maximise their chance of scoring the full point, not to gamble and realize dreams of wild slugfests and brilliancies. 

Tony's attitude looks like a good example of this.

Of course some GMs still have a marked preference for tactical and attacking play (i.e. Tal, Shirov, Topalov), but that makes sense if that really is their greatest strength compared to other GMs. On the other hand many club players who think of themselves as "attacking" players are really not that good at calculation, but they don't seem to connect the dots.
  

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #16 - 02/05/10 at 12:15:57
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[quote]If I can't calculate the complications I almost always avoid them! The only exception would be when I 'feel' certain that these complications must be very favourable to me. [/quote]

Have you any feeling, Tony, about how many other GMs feel/act similarly (or differently)?
  
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #15 - 02/05/10 at 12:08:00
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I know several people (typical tournament players) who play very solid with White (e.g. English, Catalan) but play very aggressively with Black (e.g. Najdorf). Their reasoning is that "with White you can win by doing nothing, but you need to take chances if you want to score well with Black."
  
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #14 - 02/05/10 at 11:54:06
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Markovich wrote on 02/04/10 at 18:30:08:

I don't get this, because I'd have thought that even for a GM there were such a thing as unfathomable complications.  And don't you sometimes have the choice between launching into complications with very murky conclusions and playing a staid move?  Obviously one wants to play the "best" move, but doesn't that somewhat beg the question?  I'd be very interested to know what a GM thinks about this.

If I can't calculate the complications I almost always avoid them! The only exception would be when I 'feel' certain that these complications must be very favourable to me.
  
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #13 - 02/05/10 at 07:40:51
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msiipola wrote on 01/30/10 at 10:12:47:
If your opponent don't make blunders, and you are of equal strength, do your always need to take risk in order to win? E.g. make a sacrifice or open lines to your King.

If you take a risk, do always see how the game will continue?

How certain are you that your risk taking will get you an advantage?

In such circumstances, I think it is better to give your opponent the opportunity of taking himself a risk. It feels a lot better when you "force" your opponent into a sacrifice where he seems to get promising attacking chances and you actually get very good couterplay  Cool
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #12 - 02/04/10 at 19:47:40
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This reminds me of  a study I remember reading when studying entrepreneurship in business school. The essence of it was that the most successful entrepreneurs did not think of themselves  as risk takers. In their minds, they were so sure of the decisions they had taken.

Perhaps this is what Tony Kosten means.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #11 - 02/04/10 at 18:30:08
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 02/04/10 at 16:43:33:
Risk taking should almost never be necessary! Just try to play the best moves! Smiley


I don't get this, because I'd have thought that even for a GM there were such a thing as unfathomable complications.  And don't you sometimes have the choice between launching into complications with very murky conclusions and playing a staid move?  Obviously one wants to play the "best" move, but doesn't that somewhat beg the question?  I'd be very interested to know what a GM thinks about this.

It hasn't really been discussed here but this taking risk thing applies to repertoire choices as well, it seems to me.  Doesn't the Modern Benoni player undertake greater risk than the Slav player?  I'd hate to live in a world where everyone played the Slav, though sometimes it seems like I already do.  I'd like to think that in exchange for his risk, the Modern Benoni player gets the opportunity for counterplay that Slav players can only dream of (yeah, yeah, I know that there are dynamic lines of the Slav, but permit me to typefy.)
  

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #10 - 02/04/10 at 16:43:33
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Risk taking should almost never be necessary! Just try to play the best moves! Smiley
  
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #9 - 02/04/10 at 13:38:55
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I have actually found that not "taking risks" is in itself very risky! Whenever I try to make a strategy of safe and solid moves, I wind up in a horrendously passive position where the opponent can win at ease since I am not threatening him. So one needs to be a bit active, and at the very least accept loosening the pawn structure a bit, even though that may feel like a risky thing to do.
  
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #8 - 01/30/10 at 14:37:42
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Antillian wrote on 01/30/10 at 13:05:02:
I would suggest you invest in a general middlegame book and would recommend Silman's "How to Re-asses your Chess" 
This is the usual bad advice from chess players to chess players. The kernel of the problem is described very well here: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman06.pdf Too much speculation too less knowing in the answer given here.

For these kind of questions there is no general answer. A good answer depends on playing level and profile of the questioner. (Btw: It is addressed in the article and in the title of Silman's book. Before re-assessing something you have to assess something. Silman's book is no book for beginners till average level, which is ~1600.)
  

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #7 - 01/30/10 at 13:05:02
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I am interpreting the original poster's  use of the word "blunder" to mean "obvious tactical mistake".  If so, the question suggests to me a very one dimensional view of the game of chess and lack of awareness of chess strategy. 

I would suggest you invest in a general middlegame book and would recommend Silman's "How to Re-asses your Chess"
  

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #6 - 01/30/10 at 12:55:53
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Even super GMs routinely make less than perfect moves (mistakes) during a game.  If you don't recognizing your opponents mistakes then why would you expect to win?  Just play on and when you finally see a mistake, pounce on it, otherwise try not to lose.
And one other thing, a desperato attack when you are losing is not really risk taking.       
  

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #5 - 01/30/10 at 12:32:26
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msiipola wrote on 01/30/10 at 10:12:47:
If your opponent don't make blunders,


... then maybe they are using an analysis engine?  Wink

But if they aren't, and they don't, they will still make lesser mistakes which you can exploit.

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #4 - 01/30/10 at 12:10:18
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Taking pawns and pieces usually works better
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #3 - 01/30/10 at 11:44:47
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Just play good moves. Your opponent will make weaker ones. 
Hey presto.
  
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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #2 - 01/30/10 at 11:41:51
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You should take risks, but only when they are rational and calculated. However, the intended 'risky' move does not always have to be objectively the best - sometimes a speculative sacrifice that complicates the position significantly, creating a dangerous and sudden attack against the opponent's king where the opponent must calculate accurately, can decide the game in your favour. 

I advise against taking irrational risks, such as sacrificing material for minimal compensation (except in positions where other moves lose more quickly or easily), playing for a win in a drawn position but only creating losing chances for yourself, and seriously weakening your own position without achieving any compensation in return.

The philosophical way of viewing risk-taking in chess is that every move is a risk of some sort since the position changes with every move, and squares/pieces are weakened with every move, but obviously this isn't of much help to the player except for recognising what one can currently play, which could not be played on the previous move. 

Generally speaking, in an equal position against a slightly weaker player, you need to take some slight risks to play for a win, but if you do so at the expense of playing good moves, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

In team competitions, a good general strategy (if you are the stronger team) is to play with the draw 'in hand' whilst playing for a win, and being ready to take risks if your team needs you to win. If you are the weaker team, offer a draw out of the opening, and then be ready to complicate the position without taking too many undue risks, and make sure you don't fall far behind on the clock.
  

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Re: Taking risks?
Reply #1 - 01/30/10 at 11:11:43
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This depends on your playing strength. Till 1800 there will be nearly always a blunder in your opponents game. So playing with full attention helps winning most games. Risk taking is not necessary for winning at this level and harmful if playing against 200+ weaker opponents.

When I was team captain and a player ask me for taking a risk to win the game I always said: Play your position and not for the team! We were rated 4th and succeeded in winning the league. Partly because the opponents started to play risky, partly because we had a 'clean shirt' against the lower rated teams. (Team points before game points.)
  

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Taking risks?
01/30/10 at 10:12:47
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If your opponent don't make blunders, and you are of equal strength, do your always need to take risk in order to win? E.g. make a sacrifice or open lines to your King.

If you take a risk, do always see how the game will continue?

How certain are you that your risk taking will get you an advantage?
  
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