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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Yet another set of evaluation symbols. (Read 17771 times)
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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #24 - 05/01/10 at 21:43:38
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Paddy wrote on 05/01/10 at 11:33:28:
While mining Alburt's "Test and Improve Your Chess" for insights into Alekhine's defence, I found that he has a chapter devoted to just this topic. ....

Sounds similar to the "Score" evaluation output by an analysis engine: 
0.00 is =
For + numbers, white is better; for - numbers, black is better.  Hoewver these purely numeric evaluations do not preserve the "ease of play" criterion that Markovich's brainchild provides for.
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #23 - 05/01/10 at 11:33:28
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While mining Alburt's "Test and Improve Your Chess" for insights into Alekhine's defence, I found that he has a chapter devoted to just this topic. He outlines a "system of predicted results" that can be expressed on a 10 point scale - not too complex to comprehend, but enabling greater refinement than the traditional 5 point scale of =, += etc. Thus:

Old system             New system
=                                5.0
+=                              5.5-6.0
=+                              4.5-4.0
etc.

He rates the starting position as 5.5 if White begins with 1 e4, 1 d4, 1 Nf3 or 1 c4.

He also shows how a symbol such as ? can be made somewhat more precise by reference to this scale, e.g. ?! after a white move might lower the assessment of White's position by 0.5  to 1.0 points, ? by 1.0 - 2.0 points, ?? by at least 2 points etc.

Expressed like this the system might seem rather too abstract or complicated for practical use, but later Alburt shows how it can be applied to a real game and it becomes quite transparent (honest!) and I imagine that it becomes merely a question of practice.

Alburt does not say so, but I believe this system (or something very similar) was first developed in the USSR by Boris Spassky's trainer Igor Bondarevsky, who published an article on it in Shakhmatny Bulletin in the 1970s(?).

By the way, the book (which is basically a collection of some of Alburt's articles for Chess Life and Chess)  contains some excellent material for any fans of the Alekhine and the Benko gambit.

Markovich wrote on 02/18/10 at 21:18:47:
I don't like the standard +=, =, =+ and so forth framework for communicating positional evaluation, because it doesn't do enough to convey the winning chances of the two players.  It is not a one-dimensional, but a two dimensional problem.

Here is what I propose, in perfect confidence that it will instantly be adopted by the chess world:

Certain:

WW   White wins with best play
==   The game is drawn with best play
BB   Black wins with best play

Uncertain, Undynamic (scant winning chances for at least one side):

W    Good winning chances for White, scant ones for Black
w    Some winning chances for White, scant ones for Black
=w   Scant winning chances on either side, White's play is easier
=    Scant winning chances on either side
=b   Scant winning chances on either side, Black's play is easier
b    Some winning chances for Black, scant ones for White
B    Good winning chances for Black, scant ones for White

Uncertain Dynamic (at least some winning chances for each side):

Wb   Good winning chances for White, some for Black
zw   Some winning chances for each player, White's play is easier
z    Some winning chances for each player
zb   Some winning chances for each player, Black's play is easier
wB   Good winning chances for Black, some for White

Zw   Good winning chances for each player, White's play is easier
Z    Good winning chances for each player
Zb   Good winning chances for each player, Black's play is easier


This is a total of 18 possible marks. Note that "z" can be thought of as shorthand for "wb," "Z" for "WB."  Note also that given certainty, everything is WW, == or BB; all else presupposes uncertainty, which is why judgment is called for.  

So, how would I evaluate the initial position?  zw.

  
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GeneM
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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #22 - 02/26/10 at 00:18:53
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Markovich wrote on 02/18/10 at 21:18:47:
Here is what I propose, in perfect confidence that it will instantly be adopted by the chess world:

I tend to agree with the consensus, that this symbology is too complicated for general consumption.
However....

For a variety of reasons, it would be interesting IF you posted a FEN position for each of your symbol or symbol combinations.
That would be a lot of work for you tho.

Thanks.
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #21 - 02/24/10 at 20:45:17
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Markovich wrote on 02/20/10 at 02:17:55:


Fair enough.  So, propose a system of your own.

Status quo suffices for my purposes.  Clearly you deserve credit for invention.  If my tone came off rude/harsh, this was not intended.   Cry
I am your big fan since reading your influential "Hard Chess" columns as a complete novice!  Smiley
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #20 - 02/20/10 at 20:47:55
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You should find out if the concentration of Higgs bosons in your head is higher than normal.
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #19 - 02/20/10 at 02:20:11
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Markovich wrote on 02/19/10 at 14:24:12:
Just look how these people mock my genius.

But to continue, the two-dimensional evaluation system facilitates the application of alternative criteria to the selection of moves (good players do this already; it's only that the evaluation system calls attention to it).  Here are some possible criteria for White and the ranking of evaluations that follows from them (rankings are in order of decreasing desirability; also since all rankings start with WW, W and end with B, BB, I omit these).

1.  Maximize relative chances, maximize own chances among ties.  This gives: Wb, w, Zw, zw, =w, Z, z, =, ==, Zb, zb, =b, wB, b.

2.  Maximize relative chances, minimize opponent's chances (chance of defeat) among ties, maximize own chances among further ties (this last necessary to choose between Zb, zb and =b): w, Wb, =w, zw, Zw, ==, =, z, Z, Zb, zb, =b, b, wB.

3.  Maximize own chances, maximize relative chances among ties (almost like, White must win): Wb, Zw, Z, Zb, w, zw, z, zb, wB, =w, =, ==, =b, b.  But if White must win, then "==" should be shifted to the bottom.

4.  Minimize opponent's chances, maximize relative chances among ties (White must draw): ==, w, =w, =, =b, Wb, zw, z, zb, b, Zw, Z, Zb, wB.

Clearly these different criteria would give rise to very different move selections.  This already happens in practice, it's only the the marking system illustrates how.  

A single tree of variations marked with this method and "backsolved" according to some criterion would readily yield the optimal move selection under that criterion, but only if one assumed the criterion according to which each side is selecting its moves!  A standard assumption would be that the opponent is merely trying to thwart one's goal, but that isn't necessarily the case.  If one can assume that one's opponent must play for a win, while one's goal is to maximize one's relative chances, the opportunity may arise to steer the game (as White) into Wb territory since the opponent will prefer this even to =b.

My point is that to mark a given position in a tree of variations with fixed terminal evaluations, one needs to assume the criteria under which either side will select its move.  The mark assigned to any given position will depend on the two criteria assumed.  

This aspect of move selection is not revealed, but rather is concealed, by the standard, one-dimensional system of marking positions.  Under a one-dimensional system, for a given set of terminal marks, there is always a set of equally preferred, objectively optimal moves at the root position.

I will conclude by remarking that verbal annotations, while fully sufficient for conveying a message like Zb, do not suffice for ranking positions and backsolving trees of variations, or if they do suffice, there must be a very laborious process of translation and interpretation, which could have been avoided if the terminal positions had been marked according to the proposed method.


In this post is contained the deep implication of my conception, and so far, nobody has confronted it.  

Peons!  What do I have to do?  Watch the Winter Olympics?!
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #18 - 02/20/10 at 02:17:55
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katar wrote on 02/20/10 at 00:04:24:
Markovich's system does not provide for positions in which the objectively "worse" side is much easier to play.


Fair enough.  So, propose a system of your own.
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #17 - 02/20/10 at 00:04:24
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While i'd be the first to recognize the genius of The Great Oz, i wouldn't say his system is as practical as (say) the metric system.  

IMO, "winning chances" is a far-off concept in most chess situations.  Generally on moves 10-30 it seems misleading to speak of "winning chances" when the game's conclusion is quite distant.  The concept of "better", "slightly better", "clearly better", etc is simpler and more intuitive.

Further, i think the additional symbols for "idea", "counterplay", compensation", "initiative", "only move", etc. fill the gaps left by the +=- symbols and connote more information than the nebulous concept of "winning chances".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuation_%28chess%29#Position_evaluation_symbols... Also, such hieroglyphics are more interesting than Mark's alphabet symbols.  When those don't fit the bill, writing actual prose annotations is still legal in most countries outside former Yugoslavia.  

Finally, at the end, i think one simply comes round full circle since the operative phrases are subjective and lack a universal definition.  E.g., which side of IQP is "easier to play"?  Depends on whom you ask.  Also, the starting position is surely just a regular "z"; for example, b/c black has an easier time dictating the play and can channel the opening into specific preferred lines.  Which highlights another problem-- Markovich's system does not provide for positions in which the objectively "worse" side is much easier to play.
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #16 - 02/19/10 at 16:31:27
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Yes, yes, and then there are those for whom producing even a two-dimensional evaluation would be difficult.
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #15 - 02/19/10 at 15:57:53
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Antillian wrote on 02/19/10 at 15:27:02:


Thus we need some further modifications to arrive at an algorithm that will lead to more meaningful probabilistic determinations appropriate for accurate back-solving capabilities. 

For example, I would propose the following:

WbPTdW   Good winning chances for White, some for Black, where White is a predominately positional style player, Black is a predominately tactical player, White will be happy to draw, while Black needs to win.

I suggest you likewise expand on each of your evaluation acronyms to take into account these additional dimensions. 


Antillian, you're on the right path, but you don't go far enough.

There should be notation that takes into account age, nationality, childhood traumas and current love interests.  You should also take into account what they ate for breakfast, whether they've given up smoking recently, and the current weather conditions.

If that doesn't work, then we can always return to Dink's radical suggestion.  If writing for an international audience, ECO's arcana is still useful.
  
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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #14 - 02/19/10 at 15:42:08
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Just for that, Antillian, I won't help Haiti.
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #13 - 02/19/10 at 15:27:02
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Markovich wrote on 02/19/10 at 14:24:12:
Just look how these people mock my genius.

But to continue, the two-dimensional evaluation system facilitates the application of alternative criteria to the selection of moves (good players do this already; it's only that the evaluation system calls attention to it). 


I would argue further than two dimensions is too limiting. Chess is actually four dimensional. Just as critical to the selection of moves is the stylistic differences between the two players and the position in the tournament cross table. 

Thus we need some further modifications to arrive at an algorithm that will lead to more meaningful probabilistic determinations appropriate for accurate back-solving capabilities. 

For example, I would propose the following:

WbPTdW   Good winning chances for White, some for Black, where White is a predominately positional style player, Black is a predominately tactical player, White will be happy to draw, while Black needs to win.

I suggest you likewise expand on each of your evaluation acronyms to take into account these additional dimensions. 
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #12 - 02/19/10 at 15:08:08
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TicklyTim wrote on 02/19/10 at 10:07:12:
Maybe you could use an 8x8 grid labelled a-h horizontally and 1-8 on the vertical, to represent your terminology.

The a1 corner could be winning for White,
The h8 corner winning for Black.

tending towards the a8 corner could represent uncertain undynamic.
and tending towards h1 could represent uncertain undynamic.

You could even specify a range or block such as a1-a2 or a square d2-d4-f4-f2 to indicate how accurate the assessment is.

It would be a more visual representation than remembering symbols.

Eg; 1.d4 d5 could be assessed as:
1.d4 (c3-d4-c4) d5 (c4-d4)
Cheesy



I assume this is tongue in cheek, but yes, there is a geometric representation, just not square and not 8x8.  Looking back at the levels of relative advantage, can you see a 4x4 square turned on its diagonal, with vertical extensions for WW and BB?

But actually yes, you could cook up an 8x8 scheme instead, though it would involve excessively fine distinctions.  Still you should note that only one "square", such as d5, not two or three, would be necessary to convey an evaluation.
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #11 - 02/19/10 at 14:47:15
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Klick wrote on 02/19/10 at 10:45:33:
Actually, I like this idea a lot. Current symbols don`t really tell much. But it is important to keep the symbols as simple as possible, lest you have to look up in a dictionary everytime you want to decipher the notation. For instance we could just keep 

+-:White wins with best play
=:   The game is drawn with best play
-+:   Black wins with best play


Fair enough, except that I have "=" reserved for a different meaning, which is that there is some degree of uncertainty.  I'd reserve "==" for analytical endgames and middlegame positions leading to perpetual check or stalemate.  Scant winning chances is not zero winning chances.

As for memorization, I propose 18 symbols, a set which I assume lies within the grasp of those capable of playing this game.  I admit that what I propose would impose more work on annotators, essentially demanding that they convey more information to the reader.
  

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Re: Yet another set of evaluation symbols.
Reply #10 - 02/19/10 at 14:35:03
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In a foreword a GM wrote that his opening book, of course, wouldn't reveal his professional secrets. For such books symbols like  "(-;; +=" should be used. Some repertoire works might also qualify.  

  
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