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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2 (Read 38400 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #48 - 03/22/10 at 22:24:03
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I don't know yet what Avrukh recommends (i have pre-ordered the book from Amazon) but 7...Qe8 8.b4 (also 8.Re1 gives a little something) and 7...a5 8.Re1Ne4 9.Qc2 Nxc3 10.bxc3! are both better for White with simple play. After analysing 7...Ne4 i decided to stop counting on the Dutch as a serious weapon.
  
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Dean
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #47 - 03/22/10 at 21:49:56
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/22/10 at 09:17:10:
Dean, haven't you "refuted" the Classical 7...Ne4 variation with 12...Kxf1? Is Black alive and kicking in this variation? Wink


Well, "refuted" is not the right word, but I still think 12.Kxf1 is the most difficult move to meet.
If both players know no theory I think white clearly has the better chances after 8. Nxe4, at least +=.  But if black knows some critical variations and plans 7.. Ne4 may be playable and definitely a good surprise weapon.

And of course, black has 7.. a5 and 7..Qe8 as well.
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #46 - 03/22/10 at 09:17:10
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Dean, haven't you "refuted" the Classical 7...Ne4 variation with 12...Kxf1? Is Black alive and kicking in this variation? Wink
  
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Dean
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #45 - 03/21/10 at 20:56:09
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Psycho-Cowboy wrote on 03/21/10 at 00:44:46:
Today was a novel moment for me.

Before today I had not brought a chess book for a number of years. 

I prefer to anaysie in chessbase (wait for gingerbase!!), but after some friends recommendations I had to buy Avrukh's book.

My first impressions of the book are that it is a great piece of work and I very impressed with the books size and the quality of analysis. 

I am now looking forward to peering into the chapter on the Classical Dutch. Give me some time and I will see what I can find!

Another chapter I am interested in is, 'The English Defence'. This is close in spirit to the Classical Dutch...

Smiley

www.gingergm.com


That is great Simon, we are all very curious about your expert opinion.

Anyhow, the Classical Dutch is alive and kicking , I would say Smiley
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #44 - 03/21/10 at 00:44:46
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Today was a novel moment for me.

Before today I had not brought a chess book for a number of years. 

I prefer to anaysie in chessbase (wait for gingerbase!!), but after some friends recommendations I had to buy Avrukh's book.

My first impressions of the book are that it is a great piece of work and I very impressed with the books size and the quality of analysis. 

I am now looking forward to peering into the chapter on the Classical Dutch. Give me some time and I will see what I can find!

Another chapter I am interested in is, 'The English Defence'. This is close in spirit to the Classical Dutch...

Smiley

www.gingergm.com
  
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MNb
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #43 - 03/18/10 at 10:20:22
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Dean wrote on 03/18/10 at 06:38:32:
Sorry, I assumed that the standard 0-0 was played instead of an unusual early Nc3 and my comments apply to the former line.


On this site 7.Nbd2 Bf6 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Ne5 has been discussed before. Most contributors think White can prove a +=. You did not add much to this either. Your other chess remark, about 6...d5; already has been answered as well.

7...a5 8.b3 Ne4 9.Bb2 Nc3 10.Bc3 Qe8 is a line I don't really understand. I am especially worried about Williams' line after 11.Qd3 as he doesn't tell us how to develop Black's queenside. Btw it's a common theme in Williams' way to handle the Dutch that he leaves the queenside pieces at home for a long time.
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #42 - 03/18/10 at 08:01:56
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Avrukh suggests Ne1 and his given moves after Bf6 are quite convincing +-. So it perhaps should be Nd7. Here he only gives 2 furhter moves and stops claiming +=.
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #41 - 03/18/10 at 06:47:32
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There's no discussion of 7...a5 in this thread. Given the unnecessary trainwreck interlude that occurred, it's as good a time as any to talk about it.

The book 'Dangerous Weapons: The Dutch' give 7...a5 an ! and claim equality for Black. What is Avrukh's opinion on this move and where do the two books deviate in their analyses? 8.b3 Ne4 9.Bb2 Nc3 10.Bc3 might be the best try for an edge, but after 10...Qe8 none of White's many move 11 tries have been overly successful in practice.
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #40 - 03/18/10 at 06:38:32
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trw wrote on 03/18/10 at 00:08:03:
i'm even actually confused where you want Nf6 played now as Nbd2 is impossible. Are you even following the correct line? Btw where does that name come from? Everywhere I've looked considers this line as just "general" dutch defense given its been played less than 25 times. I'm surprised you are so "familiar" with it...


Sorry, I assumed that the standard 0-0 was played instead of an unusual early Nc3 and my comments apply to the former line.

Regarding this thread, a bit disappointing to see that hardly anyone has taken up the actual chess discussion, or given opinions backed up by serious variations, so I assume they all implicitly agree with my statements Smiley
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #39 - 03/18/10 at 04:31:11
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MNb wrote on 03/18/10 at 03:33:04:
...The last dozen of posts were highly entertaining.  Cheesy



Entertaining in the way a Durenmatt or Ionescu play is entertaining.  Ok, Not fair to the playwrights. At least they had a reason to be baffling. Huh
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #38 - 03/18/10 at 03:33:04
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Perhaps even 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 is suboptimal as it may allow a black queenside fianchetto. So even Schwarz (1964) already mentioned 2.g3.
The last dozen of posts were highly entertaining.  Cheesy
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #37 - 03/18/10 at 03:00:31
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How bizarre. Why do people insist on getting annoyed here? Chess players + internet + anonymity = dearie me.

Standard move order is to delay Nc3. Indeed, I heard long back that is best to delay c4 due to Bb4+. Just easier. Hence d4, nf3, g3, bg2, 0-0, c4, Nc3 is regarded as the optimum. 

Don't believe me if you don't want to. Look on a dbase, or ask anyone with a decent title. 

Classical dutch with proper classical dutch move order anyone...?
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #36 - 03/18/10 at 02:37:57
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BPaulsen wrote on 03/18/10 at 02:33:14:
kylemeister wrote on 03/18/10 at 02:24:52:
0-0 first rather than Nc3 is also the standard move order used in various encyclopedias.


Of course.

Quote:
so far this thread has been nothing but insults. I'm the only one that has tried to actually discuss a line in it.


You created a line where you perceived white had problems producing an advantage by using a sub-optimal move order.

Are you really surprised that instead of entertaining said deviation, people (ie: me) are telling you to improve your move order to side-step the issue altogether?

And if you seriously think my comments were insults, then that's the reason we need a face-palm smiley.



People like you are the reason we need ignore lists on this site. With that, I think we can leave off since this thread is hopelessly derailed.
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #35 - 03/18/10 at 02:33:14
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kylemeister wrote on 03/18/10 at 02:24:52:
0-0 first rather than Nc3 is also the standard move order used in various encyclopedias.


Of course.

Quote:
so far this thread has been nothing but insults. I'm the only one that has tried to actually discuss a line in it.


You created a line where you perceived white had problems producing an advantage by using a sub-optimal move order.

Are you really surprised that instead of entertaining said deviation, people (ie: me) are telling you to improve your move order to side-step the issue altogether?

And if you seriously think my comments were insults, then that's the reason we need a face-palm smiley.
  
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Re: Avrukh vs. Classical Dutch 1/2-1/2
Reply #34 - 03/18/10 at 02:28:57
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BPaulsen wrote on 03/18/10 at 02:27:47:
trw wrote on 03/18/10 at 02:25:20:
No I created a position where I said black has no winning chances and I hadn't found whites winning chances. I'm sure they are there which is why I asked for others suggestions. I'm well aware there are many other move orders. Next you'll tell me I could have played 1. e4 to avoid the whole variation!


Roll Eyes

This site needs a face-palm smiley, seriously.

And aside from that, try focusing here, I know it's tough while you're trying to get offended and all - This thread is about the Classical Dutch.

The solution to your problem is don't use inferior move orders in the Classical Dutch.



so far this thread has been nothing but insults. I'm the only one that has tried to actually discuss a line in it.  Roll Eyes
  
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