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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle (Read 30450 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #33 - 06/15/10 at 23:14:12
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I would like to extend my sincerest gratitude and thanks to GM Gawain Jones for examining this line in his June update, while incorporating and crediting all the relevant and important analysis contained in this thread.

Those of you with subscriptions make sure not to miss it, while those of you without, well it's never too late to sign up. Wink

Tops Smiley 
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #32 - 05/30/10 at 06:16:04
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Black may try 10...c5 11.0-0 h5!? (11...Rxd4 12.Qa4 =; 11...cxd4 12.c5!; 11...Nf6 12.Qa4 =; 11...Nh6 12.Qc2 cxd4 13.c5), e.g. 12.Bf3 (12.Nd2 Rxd4 13.Qe1 Qb6!) 12...Qa6 13.Nc3 (13.Nd2 Rxd4 14.Qe2 e6 15.Nb3 Rd7 16.Rad1 Nf6) 13...cxd4 14.Nb5 e5 15.Qe2 (15.Rc1) comp. But once more White has 12.Qa4 cxd4 13.Qxa7 to force a draw: 13...Qxe2 14.Qa8+ Kc7 15.Qa5+ Kd7 16.Qa4+ when 16...Ke6?! 17.Nc3 would be risky.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #31 - 05/30/10 at 00:53:33
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AlanG wrote on 05/29/10 at 19:24:07:
gewgaw wrote on 05/29/10 at 19:02:11:
6. ...Qh5!? - is it no viable option?

I think Qh5 is worth looking at - maybe with the idea 7.Be3 Nh6!? - but perhaps we should start a new thread?


Agreed, this thread is strictly concerned with the lines arising after 10...c5. Although I can fully appreciate Gawgaw's desire to move away from these positions, indeed any Scandanavian practitioner would, as playing for two results, i.e. loss or draw is hardly an inspiring task.

As promised the position after 10...c5 11. 0-0 Rxd4 12. Qa4! will be next up on the agenda, unless someone provides something more compelling in the meantime.

Till then God speed.

Tops Smiley 
  
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AlanG
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #30 - 05/29/10 at 19:24:07
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gewgaw wrote on 05/29/10 at 19:02:11:
6. ...Qh5!? - is it no viable option?

I think Qh5 is worth looking at - maybe with the idea 7.Be3 Nh6!? - but perhaps we should start a new thread?
  
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #29 - 05/29/10 at 19:02:11
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1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. Be2 Nc6 5. d4 O-O-O 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nxd4 9. Bxd4
Qe6+ 10. Be2 c5 11. O-O (11. Nd2 cxd4 12. O-O Qd7 =+) 11... Rxd4 (11... Nf6!? Maybe transposition, maybe more 12. Re1 (12. Qa4 cxd4 13. Bf3) 12... Rxd4 13. Qc2) (11... Nf6 12. Nd2 Rxd4 13. Qe1 =+) 12. Qc2 Qe4 (12... Nf6 13. Nc3 Qb6 14. b4 =) 13. Qxe4 Rxe4 14.Nc3 Rd4 15. Nb5 Rd2 16. Bg4+ e6 17. Nxa7+ Kb8 18. Nb5 Rxb2 19. Rab1 Rxb1 (19...Rb4 20. Rxb4 cxb4 21. Rd1=) 20. Rxb1 Nf6 21. Bf3 Ne8 22. a4 Be7 23. a5
Bd8 24. Nc3 Nd6 25. a6 b6 ?? (25... Bc7 +=) 26. Rd1 +-

6. ...Qh5!? - is it no viable option?


  
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AlanG
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #28 - 05/29/10 at 18:07:53
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14...Rh4 is perhaps better than 14...Rf4 since after 15.g3 Rh6 16.Bg4+ e6, 17.Ne4 is no longer a problem.

Alternatively, in your main line, 19...Rb4, and I think the following all lead to equality:

20.a3 Rxb1 (now that Ra3 is not possible) 21.Rxb1 Nf6 22.Bf3 b6 23.a4 Kc8 24.Na7+ Kc7 25.Nb5+ Kc8
20.Rxb4 cxb4 21.Rd1 Kc8 22.Na7+ Kc7 23.Nb5+ etc.
20.Rfd1 Kc8 etc.

But I agree that it's not that easy for Black. I'm fairly convinced now that 10...c5 is drawn, but I'm not sure I'd actually want to play it OTB.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Scandinavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #27 - 05/29/10 at 16:43:56
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AlanG wrote on 05/25/10 at 19:05:40:
Well, 14.Qa8+ is still a draw, of course, but if there's nothing better then 13.0-0 is a bit pointless.

After 14.Na3 Qe5, maybe 15.c5 is a slight improvement because 15...Ng4 can be met by 16.f4. (After 15.Nb5 e6 16.c5 Ng4 17.f4 would lose to Bxc5.)

However, Black still looks better to me.


The time has come yet again to update this thread slightly, and as Gawgaw and yourself have already indicated, it appears that 11. Qa4 should lead to a draw. Still life is far from easy for Black, as White has other ways to actively pursue the initiative, even all the way into the endgame. For instance:

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. Be2 Nc6 5. d4 O-O-O 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nxd4 9. Bxd4 Qe6+ 10. Be2 c5 11. 0-0 [We have already examined 11. Qa4 to death, and will give that a rest unless some new discoveries come to light] 11...Rxd4 12. Qc2 [The alternative and possibly stronger 12. Qa4, sacrificing a piece, (seems we cannot escape this move) will be examined in a separate post] 12... Qe4 13.Qxe4 Rxe4 14.Nc3 Rd4 (14...Rf4 15.g3 Rf6 16.Bg4+ With an edge) 15.Nb5 Rd2 16.Bg4+ e6 17.Nxa7+ Kb8 18.Nb5 Rxb2 19.Rab1 Rxb1 20.Rxb1 Nf6 21.Bf3 Ne8 22.a4 Be7 23.a5 Bd8 24.Nc3 Nd6 25.a6 b6 26.Rd1+- Winning.

Comments, feedback and analyses welcome.

Tops Smiley 
  
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AlanG
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Re: Scandinavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #26 - 05/25/10 at 19:05:40
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Well, 14.Qa8+ is still a draw, of course, but if there's nothing better then 13.0-0 is a bit pointless.

After 14.Na3 Qe5, maybe 15.c5 is a slight improvement because 15...Ng4 can be met by 16.f4. (After 15.Nb5 e6 16.c5 Ng4 17.f4 would lose to Bxc5.)

However, Black still looks better to me.
  
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #25 - 05/25/10 at 17:40:17
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This is my mainline, White has nothing, except of a lost position.

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. Be2 Nc6 5. d4 O-O-O 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nxd4 9. Bxd4 Qe6+ 10. Be2 c5 11. Qa4 cxd4 12. Qxa7 Nf6 13. O-O Qxe2 14.Na3 Qe5 15. Nb5 e6 16. c5 Ng4 17. g3 Qb8 18. Qa4 Ne5 19. Na7+ Kc7 20. Nb5+ Kd7
21. Nxd4+ Ke7 

What am I missing?
  
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #24 - 05/25/10 at 10:46:02
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TopNotch wrote on 05/23/10 at 15:42:46:
Thanks links,

I will post on 11.Nd2 and 11.Nc3 when I eventually get everything sorted, 11.0-0 and 11.Qc2 also deserve attention although they may transpose.

In the line 11.Qa4 cd4 12.Qxa7 Nf6 there maybe some mileage in 13.0-0 despite the engines initial scepticism.

So despite my misgivings about the odd looking 10...c5 it does indeed seem playable, although the jury is still out on whether its any good.

Hopefully some further tournament tests with the move will help clarify matters.

Tops Smiley


11.Qa4 cd4 12.Qxa7 Nf6 13.O-O!?: I see, like the variations you posted earlier, but with the extra tempo Nf6 for Black. I agree the engine's initial evaluation is too optimistic for Black. My impression is that Black should not try to win, but try to force White into a repetition.

I had a look again at 11.Nc3, 11.Nd2 and 11.Qc2, but couldn't find anything promising for White. I'll wait for your variations here.
However, 11.0-0 perhaps deserves closer attention. Rough impression:
* 11...Rxd4 12.Qe1!? Nf6 13.Nbd2 Rd6 14.Rb1 followed by b4, knight d2 to f3 or b3, if cxb4 then Qxb4.
edit: or 14.a3 and 15.b4 or perhaps even 14.b4!? When I try this against an engine it doesn't seem to appreciate it is playing without Rh8 and Bf8 until it is too late.
* 11...cxd4 12.Nbd2 followed by Nf3. I think this is a better version of 11.Qc2 cxd4 12.0-0. White gets a good grip on the centre before advancing queenside. 
* 11...Nf6 12.Nbd2 transposes: 12...Rxd4 13.Qe1 or 12...cxd4 13.Nf3.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #23 - 05/23/10 at 15:42:46
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Thanks links,

I will post on 11.Nd2 and 11.Nc3 when I eventually get everything sorted, 11.0-0 and 11.Qc2 also deserve attention although they may transpose.

In the line 11.Qa4 cd4 12.Qxa7 Nf6 there maybe some mileage in 13.0-0 despite the engines initial scepticism.

So despite my misgivings about the odd looking 10...c5 it does indeed seem playable, although the jury is still out on whether its any good.

Hopefully some further tournament tests with the move will help clarify matters.

Tops Smiley
  
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linksspringer
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Re: Scandinavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #22 - 05/23/10 at 11:36:28
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TopNotch wrote on 05/23/10 at 02:31:06:
AlanG wrote on 05/22/10 at 20:32:34:
TopNotch wrote on 05/22/10 at 17:40:21:
13.0-0!? Qxe2 14.Na3 15.Qa8+! Kd7 16.Qxb7+ Ke8 17.Nb5 Be7 18.c5 Qe5 

I'm not sure what you intended Black to play here, but presumably not 14...Qe5 which would be my choice. Now I can't find more than a draw for White.


I'm sorry, I corrected my post now, it should be 14...e6. 14...Qe5 is another way to go, when after 15.c5 White has good winning chances.

Gawgaws stockfish's engine suggestion of 12...Nf6 looks best and equal, at least for the moment I don't see anything winning for White. Why 3.Nf3?, I happen to think it's a good line, no better or worse than 3.Nc3 and probably less exhaustively analysed. By the way what is this stockfish engine? Some googlin claimed it to be an illegal Rybka clone created in the ukraine by unscrupulous software competitors, but I find this hard to believe.  

Tops Smiley

(1. e4  d5  2. exd5  Qxd5  3. Nf3  Bg4  4. Be2  Nc6  5. d4  O-O-O  6. c4  Qf5  7. Be3  Bxf3  8. Bxf3  Nxd4  9. Bxd4  Qe6+  10. Be2  c5 11.Qa4 cxd4 12.Qxa7)
In the other thread I had already written:
linksspringer wrote on 06/16/08 at 23:19:59:
I now believe best is 12...Nf6, when after 13.Na3 black can choose between taking the draw with 13...d3 14.Qa8+ and repetition, or play on with 13...Qa6.


So I agree with you there.
Stockfish is legal, the controversy is about engines like Firebird, Robbolito etc.
Thanks for the game references and sorry to hear about your database troubles! When I have some more time I'll look into them and compare with my notes from 2008.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Scandinavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #21 - 05/23/10 at 02:31:06
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AlanG wrote on 05/22/10 at 20:32:34:
TopNotch wrote on 05/22/10 at 17:40:21:
13.0-0!? Qxe2 14.Na3 15.Qa8+! Kd7 16.Qxb7+ Ke8 17.Nb5 Be7 18.c5 Qe5 

I'm not sure what you intended Black to play here, but presumably not 14...Qe5 which would be my choice. Now I can't find more than a draw for White.


I'm sorry, I corrected my post now, it should be 14...e6. 14...Qe5 is another way to go, when after 15.c5 White has good winning chances.

Gawgaws stockfish's engine suggestion of 12...Nf6 looks best and equal, at least for the moment I don't see anything winning for White. Why 3.Nf3?, I happen to think it's a good line, no better or worse than 3.Nc3 and probably less exhaustively analysed. By the way what is this stockfish engine? Some googlin claimed it to be an illegal Rybka clone created in the ukraine by unscrupulous software competitors, but I find this hard to believe.   

Tops Smiley
  
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Re: Scandinavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #20 - 05/22/10 at 20:32:34
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TopNotch wrote on 05/22/10 at 17:40:21:
13.0-0!? Qxe2 14.Na3 15.Qa8+! Kd7 16.Qxb7+ Ke8 17.Nb5 Be7 18.c5 Qe5 

I'm not sure what you intended Black to play here, but presumably not 14...Qe5 which would be my choice. Now I can't find more than a draw for White.
  
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Re: Scandanavian - A New Wrinkle
Reply #19 - 05/22/10 at 19:44:16
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11.Qa4 cxd4 12.Qxa7 

F12 is dreaming of a big advantage after 12. ...Qe5
R3 calculates Qe5 and Nf6 as roughly equal,
and Stockfish gives black a slight advantage after 12. ...Nf6 13.Na3 Qa6
It seems 10. ...c5 is playable.

Why 3.Nf3 anyway?
  
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