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Normal Topic Elementary pawn endgames: triangulation (Read 4342 times)
Papageno
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Re: Elementary pawn endgames: triangulation
Reply #7 - 07/28/10 at 11:50:05
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Oops, well yes, that's too true. So there is more than one solution to this position.

I enjoyed Giri's game continuation which went
39. Ke2 Ke6 40. Kd3 Kf5 41. Kc3 Kf6 42. Kc2 Ke6 43. Kd2 Kf6 44. Kc3 1-0
My impression was that Giri made use of a the set of corresponding squares
* c4 or c2 vs. e6
* d3 vs. f5
* c3 vs. f6
and while the black king could only walk on these three squares (e6-f5-f6), the white king has four adjacent squares (d2-c2-c3-d3) to manoeuvre. This way Giri reaches the position with Kc4 vs. Ke6 with Black to move, thus he gets his d4-d5 for free (and not as a temporary pawn sac which also is winning but slightly more complicated).
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Elementary pawn endgames: triangulation
Reply #6 - 07/28/10 at 11:18:39
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Papageno wrote on 07/28/10 at 09:54:54:

This is the game Giri-So, Biel 2010, after move 38.

Surely everything wins here? I mean, there is no need to be fancy when you can just put your king on c4 and play d5+, creating a passed pawn?!
  
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Papageno
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Re: Elementary pawn endgames: triangulation
Reply #5 - 07/28/10 at 09:54:54
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This is the game Giri-So, Biel 2010, after move 38.
(I'll follow up with the solution in a few hours.)
  
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Girkassa
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Re: Elementary pawn endgames: triangulation
Reply #4 - 07/19/10 at 15:14:20
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Regarding the original question,

Quote:
My question is in terms of recognising when to triangulate. Is if it is best to ask oneself "what if it was my opponent's move now?" in order to know if one needs to triangulate or is there a better way of actually spotting it?


I would say "yes." Triangulation is pointless unless it puts your opponent in zugzwang. If it's your turn and you discover that your opponent would be in zugzwang, but it's hard for you to make a move that keeps the zugzwang, I'd try to find a way to "lose a move," e.g. by triangulation.
  
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zoo
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Re: Elementary pawn endgames: triangulation
Reply #3 - 07/16/10 at 12:13:14
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Several old (30+) endgame books generalize the concept to conjugates of order 1,2,...n, which can give a clear view of the process. Perhaps Villeneuve has it ?
  
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ChessWizz
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Re: Elementary pawn endgames: triangulation
Reply #2 - 07/12/10 at 04:59:21
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Thank you Smyslov_Fan. I've been studying this endgame now for a while using tablebases and I don't think its too difficult to comprehend. It seems most important to remember that if the defending side keeps his pawn on the second rank its always a draw otherwise the stronger side generally wins by advancing the pawn and if necessary triangulates. The exception is sometimes when the defending sides pawn is far advanced he can draw reach drawn K+Q vs. K+Q ending. But since you mentioned Speelman devoted a full chapter to this ending it is probably a fine idea to see if there is something I missed.

At any rate, by studying these positions I think I have got the a basic hang of triangulation Smiley
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Elementary pawn endgames: triangulation
Reply #1 - 07/11/10 at 22:26:04
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Jonathan Speelman spent a full chapter in his Analysing the Endgame on this ending.  This is also covered in many endgame books. 

This may be an "elementary pawn endgame" in the sense that there is little material. But it is very complex.

In this case, you'll probably be better reading the books than posting here.
  
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ChessWizz
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Elementary pawn endgames: triangulation
07/11/10 at 15:43:12
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I understand triangulation like this. King A makes 3 moves within in a triangle whereas King B is forced to limit itself to moving between only two squares and as a result ends up on a different square than it started on. It is forced because of a number of reasons. E.g. pawns are limiting the king, the king has to be inside the square of the pawn and so on.

My question is in terms of recognising when to triangulate. Is if it is best to ask oneself "what if it was my opponent's move now?" in order to know if one needs to triangulate or is there a better way of actually spotting it?

These are two examples I had difficulties with before I was given a hint of using triangulation. 

White moves
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White moves
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Many thanks
/Wizz
  
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