Normal Topic Annoying 7.b3 vs Classical Dutch (Read 6864 times)
MNb
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Re: Annoying 7.b3 vs Classical Dutch
Reply #7 - 11/18/10 at 00:57:48
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I fully subscribe the thought that before move 10 Black should know how to develop the queenside. It's my main objection against Williams' approach to the Classical Dutch.
I must admit I had not considered 13...Qe7 14.e4. Rybka suggests the gambit f4 15.gxf4 Bg4. If this doesn't work 13...Qe8 is better indeed, but my suspicion of 7...Ne4 grows.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Annoying 7.b3 vs Classical Dutch
Reply #6 - 11/17/10 at 17:29:31
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Thanks MNb; I'll take a closer look later.  I had considered 9... Nc6 10. Nc3 Nxc3 11. Bxc3 e5 12.dxe5 dxe5 13. Rad1 Qe8 14. e4 f4 15.gxf4 exf4 16.e5 Be7=, but wasn't sure what to do after 13...Qe7 14.e4 because if 14...f4 15.gxf4 exf4 16.e5 the Queen is definitely on the wrong square!  All these lines reinforced that Black doesn't have an easy way to get his Queenside pieces into the game.

The annotations above were my thoughts as the game was played last night.  I don't expect instant equality with Black, but I do expect to have a good plan for getting all my pieces gainfully employed, and I don't always have that in the Classical Dutch.
  
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MNb
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Re: Annoying 7.b3 vs Classical Dutch
Reply #5 - 11/17/10 at 16:33:40
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/17/10 at 15:06:23:
1. d4 f5 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 Nf6 4. g3 Be7 5. Bg2 O-O 6. O-O d6
7. b3 Ne4 8. Bb2 Bf6 9. Qc2 a5 

Around here I couldn't figure out how best to finish my Queenside development.  If 9... Nc6 10. Nc3 Nxc3 11. Bxc3 e5 12.dxe5 dxe5 13. Rad1 Qe8 14. Qb2 White is better.

But not after 13...Qe7 (if possible a better square than e8; in fact this one of the positive sides of an early ...Ne4 and ...Bf6) 14.Qb2 Bd7. After 15.Rd2 Black already had e4 and 16...e3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Annoying 7.b3 vs Classical Dutch
Reply #4 - 11/17/10 at 15:06:23
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I just played a game in this, luckily against someone rated 370 below me.  I feel like I had to work way too hard to win; White got a good position by just playing simple, natural moves.  The time control was G/60:

[White "1750 player"]
[Black "ErictheRed"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A96"]

1. d4 f5 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 Nf6 4. g3 Be7 5. Bg2 O-O 6. O-O d6
7. b3 Ne4 8. Bb2 Bf6 9. Qc2 a5 

Around here I couldn't figure out how best to finish my Queenside development.  If 9... Nc6 10. Nc3 Nxc3 11. Bxc3 e5 12.dxe5 dxe5 13. Rad1 Qe8 14. Qb2 White is better.

10. Nbd2 Nxd2 

I didn't want to play 10... d5 because White has played all the standard Stonewall moves and Black has wasted time with his d-pawn, Knight, and Bishop.  White must be better.

11. Qxd2 d5  But now I didn't really see a choice. 12.cxd5?! Luckily, White begins to embark on the wrong plan. exd5 13. Rac1 c6 14. a3 Be6 15. Ne1 Qb6 16. Qd3 Nd7 = 17. Rb1 Be7 18. Qc3 Nf6 19. Nd3 Ne4 20. Bxe4? fxe4  21. Nc5 Bh3 22. Rfe1 Black is much better Rae8 23. Bc1 Bd6 24. Bd2 Qc7 25. b4 b6! 26. Na4 b5!? 27. Nb2? axb4 28.axb4 e3! 29. Bxe3 Qe7! at this point we were both down to about 7 minutes, I hate fast time controls.

Not 29...Rxe3?? 30. fxe3 Qf7 31.Nd3! Qe6 32.Ne5! or 31...Qf5 Nf4! 

The game finished 30. Nd3 (The prettiest line is 30.Bd2 Rxf2! 31.Kxf2 Bxb4 32.Qxb4 Qe4)  Qe4 31. f3
Qxe3+ 32. Kh1 Rxf3 33. exf3 Qxf3+ 34. Kg1 Qg2#
0-1

Obviously chess is hard work and I ended up playing a nice combination, but really White got an advantage out of the opening without even trying.  A stronger player would have made my life much more difficult after move 11.  My honeymoon period with the Classical Dutch is definitely over...



  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Annoying 7.b3 vs Classical Dutch
Reply #3 - 11/06/10 at 03:40:30
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Actually I'd think one would need to be a flexible thinker to be successful with the Dutch. Often you need to be creative to find the right solution. Tregubov - Bauer, Clichy 2004 was a nice game for Black that went 7.b3 Ne4 8.Bb2 Bf6 9.Nfd2 d5. 8.Nfd2 d5 seems playable as well. Black could play for only one break in the Classical, but that's certainly not the only way, nor the best way, to play it. Actually Simon Williams now recommends 8.Bb2 Nd7 and 8..Nc6 9.d5 Bf6 on his Killer Dutch DVD. I don't have a fundamental belief in the Classical Dutch, but I think such a one-sided view is mistaken. Sometimes the most resilient defences are found in the Stonewall structures, but the inherent flexibility of the Classical structure carries its own interesting problems.
  
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Re: Annoying 7.b3 vs Classical Dutch
Reply #2 - 11/05/10 at 01:05:55
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caph1 wrote on 11/04/10 at 17:05:14:
I experienced that after 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Sf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. Nf3 d6 6. O-O O-O white players who rarely confront classical dutch usually dont enter into main lines with 7.Nc3 but instead played 7. b3 

I encoutered this move in nearly 80% of classical dutch games and found it quite annoying.

Maybe I have met it a few times, but certainly not in 80% of my games. It's one of the lines where Williams' book is insufficient. I don't know about the DVD.
In my opinion 7.b3 is a clever move, as White postpones the decision how to develop the Queen's Knight and thus avoids the problems of 7.Nbd2.

caph1 wrote on 11/04/10 at 17:05:14:
In one game I continued 7...Ne4 8. Nfd2 Nxd2 9. Qxd2 and now I probably prematurely played 9...e5 and I didnt like my position after 10. dxe5 dxe5 11. Bb2 Bf6 12. Rd1

I agree completely. One problem Williams does not really address is that the thematic ...e6-e5 opens the centre and benefits the player with the better development - in this case White.

caph1 wrote on 11/04/10 at 17:05:14:
In the other game vs an IM I played 7...Ne4 8. Bb2 Nd7 9. Nbd2 Ndf6 10. e3 Qe8 11. Ne1 Bd7 12. f3 Nxd2 13. Qxd2 Qg6 14. Nd3 Bc6 15. Rad1 Rae8 16. Nf4 Qf7 17. d5 again with difficult position.
I think 10.Qc2 idee 11.b4 and 12.c5 even better.

[quote author=2426372F76470 link=1288890314/0#0 date=1288890314]Later vs FM I played 7...Ne4 8. Bb2 Bf6 9. Nbd2 Nc6 10. Ne1 Nxd2 11. Qxd2 e5 (reccomended by Williams in PTCD but probably premature as in the 1st game) 12. Bd5+ Kh8 13. Bxc6 bxc6 14. dxe5 dxe5 15. Qxd8 Rxd8 16. Nd3 with difficult ending for black.

Here I prefer 11...Qe7 (the ideal square for the Queen as long as she doesn't get in the way of the King's Bishop) and no way White can prevent 12...e5. As the knight on e1 is not that active White does not really have a lead in development.

Anyhow the problem of 8.Nfd2 still remains. I don't know a solution for it. Fortunately nobody forces you to play 7...Ne4. Let's face it: Black moves a piece twice in the opening while his/her Queenside is still completely developed. Moreover it's likely that this piece will be exchanged, thus reducing Black's activity and increasing White's lead in development.
I like 7...Nc6 much better. As 8.d5 is met with exd5 9.cxd5 Nb4 10.Nc3 Ne4 11.Bb2 Bf6 White's best is 8.Bb2 when Ne4 9.Nfd2 Nf6 10.Nf3 Ne4 offers an early draw; note 10.e4 e5.
7...a5 might not fit in your repertoire.
Remains 7...Qe8 when 8.Nc3 and 8.Nbd2 just transpose; so 8.Bb2 Nc6 (Bd8 first is interesting as the Bishop is already on b2; at the other hand Ne4 is met with 9.Nfd2 again) 9.d5 Nd8 (a la Keith Hayward) 10.Nc3 c6.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: Annoying 7.b3 vs Classical Dutch
Reply #1 - 11/04/10 at 22:05:36
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caph1 wrote on 11/04/10 at 17:05:14:
I encoutered this move in nearly 80% of classical dutch games and found it quite annoying.


Ironic, most 1.d4 players find the dutch defense "annoying"!

Regarding your inability to play Ne4 and and early e5 vs. b3...  you don't get any sympathy from me:)  If you don't like your position after playing the dutch automaton moves, you probably should be playing another defense.   

The dutch is inherently an inflexible defense...  i can't imagine wanting to play a defense that so desperately revolved around a single minded pawn break.
  
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Annoying 7.b3 vs Classical Dutch
11/04/10 at 17:05:14
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I experienced that after 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Sf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. Nf3 d6 6. O-O O-O white players who rarely confront classical dutch usually dont enter into main lines with 7.Nc3 but instead played 7. b3 

I encoutered this move in nearly 80% of classical dutch games and found it quite annoying.

In one game I continued 7...Ne4 8. Nfd2 Nxd2 9. Qxd2 and now I probably prematurely played 9...e5 and I didnt like my position after 10. dxe5 dxe5 11. Bb2 Bf6 12. Rd1

In the other game vs an IM I played 7...Ne4 8. Bb2
Nd7 9. Nbd2 Ndf6 10. e3 Qe8 11. Ne1 Bd7 12. f3 Nxd2 13. Qxd2 Qg6 14. Nd3 Bc6 15. Rad1 Rae8 16. Nf4 Qf7 17. d5 again with difficult position

Later vs FM I played 7...Ne4 8. Bb2 Bf6 9. Nbd2 Nc6 10. Ne1 Nxd2 11. Qxd2 e5 (reccomended by Williams in PTCD but probably premature as in the 1st game) 12. Bd5+ Kh8 13. Bxc6 bxc6 14. dxe5 dxe5 15. Qxd8 Rxd8 16. Nd3 with difficult ending for black.

Any thoughts? Do you guys often encounter 7.b3 and what do you play against it?
  
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