Really interesting. Just an obvious comment: In case of 5.Nc3?! (I suppose) 5...Bxc3 6.bxc3 and black can play in this style: b6 c5 Nc6-a5 and Ba6. The point is: can black delay the attack to the double pawns? Or should it start quickly, even before castle.

Thx

MNb wrote on 04/22/04 at 19:00:28:


I was tired of seeing one of my favorite variations getting pounded all the time, and when I went digging on this forum, this game is the only reason I could find for the poor reputation of the Dutch Indian.  I don't understand it, since clearly Williams loses in the middle-game, not the opening.  I don't think it's hard to find other ideas for Black.  On move 14, for instance, Williams brings his Queen over to the King-side with 14...Qe8, where it gets stuck.  I like better the idea of playing on the queen-side with, say, ...a4.  This way Black can always open the a-file for penetration or exchanges of heavy pieces.  I like that the Queen has a ready-made spot at a8 that can influence the a-file and the long diagonal, both.  Notice that the a5 square is also available for Black's rook to put more pressure on d5 if White ever pushes a pawn there.  I like this plan...trying to capitalize on White's light-square weaknesses.  

Another interesting idea is something like 14...Nxd3, 15. Qxd3 d5, fixing White's center pawns on the same color as his bishop.  Another idea is the traditional one of preparing ...d6 and ...e5, which wouldn't be my first choice here but I've hardly looked at it.  Finally, I think Williams' ...Qe8 idea would work a lot better if he swapped off knights first, 14...Nxd3, 15. Qxd3 Qe8, so that White wouldn't have Nf4 and Black's Queen could stay in touch with the rest of his game on the a5-e8 diagonal.

If I could play this position in my next 20 games as Black, I'd be happy.

When I let Fritz grind away overnight after 14. Qe2, then when I wake up in the morning he tells me Black is better by -.35 or so.  Maybe this is a position Fritz is no good at, because it's not forcing, but I'd rather have him on my side than not.

What about improvements for White?  Somebody suggested 9. Nd2-b1, trying to trap Black's bishop.  I'd be happy that White is spending so many tempos trying to get his knight to c3.  Here's a funny idea:  9...Bxg2 10. Kxg2 Qc8, intending to "fianchetto" the queen on that lovely diagonal.  If White continues his bishop-hunting expedition then things get wild, something like 11. c5 Qb7+ 12. Nf3 a4 13. a3 Ba5 14. Qxa4 bxc5 15. dxc5 Bb4 16. Qc2 Nc6, intending ...Nd4.  This looks like a much more fun position for Black to play.  He's a pawn down but way up in development, and White's Q-side is a mess.

But anyway, 10...Qe8 is my own amateur idea.  It's what I'd play because I know what I'm trying to do with it.  Fritz likes bringing the bishop back with boring old 10...Be7, and after thinking about it for five hours while I'm doing chores tells me Black is doing okay, =0.00.  Maybe this is just another position where the computer is bad at judging.  

So okay, I'm no master, but I can't see why everybody's down on these positions.  I've been playing Dutch Indian for a while now, and consistently gotten good games out of it.  

For those, who are worried about Black's inflexible play in the Double Fianchetto of the Iljin-Zjenevsky, there might be something else. I have stated a few times, that 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+ is good for White after 5.Nd2. Williams' recommendation could never convince me. After Muir-Williams, Hastings 2003/04 I had put the variation off. Maybe too early? After 5.Nd2 o-o 6.Ngf3 Black can try b6
a)7.a3 Bxd2+ 8.Nfxd2 Nc6!?
b)7.Ne5 Ne4 8.o-o Bxd2 9.Bxd2 Bb7 Black has not done too well. But to me his position looks reasonable, if he continues with d6, Qe7 and Nd7, keeping the choice between c7-c5 and e6-e5 open.
c)7.o-o Bb7 8.a3 Bxd2 (not Be7 9.d5!)
1)9.Bxd2 d6 10.Rc1 Ne4 (Nd7? drops a pawn after 11.Ng5) 11.Bf4 h6 12.b4 g5!? unclear.
2)9.Qxd2 Nc6 10.b4 Ne7 11.a4 a6 12.Ne1 Bxg2 12.Nxg2 b5! Popov-Makaritsjev, Amsterdam 1974.

Of course White can avoid this with 2.Nf3, but that is a bit of a concession. For instance, Black strive for the Blumenfeld Gambit or play something original, like 2...f5 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.o-o Nf6, though 6.c4 threatens 7.d5!

This (the Dutch Indian) was a great favourite of British 70a/80s Classical Dutch guru Robert Bellin, who in his 1977 book virtually declared that 2 c4 was inaccurate because of this line. 1 d4 e6 is particularly helpful in enabling Black to get this, unless White knows what Black plays, since 2 Nf3 allows other moves like 2...Nf6 and the Queen's Indian, which White might have preferred to avoid (hence 2 c4).

I used to play it when I was playing in the early 80's and I always found 5 Bd2 the more annoying reply, although I don't claim any great expertise.

Isn't it more precise to play 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ and only after 3.Bd2 later f5 ?

Dear Glenn & chessfriends,

i am facing the A84-Dutch more & more, this is not because i am a Dutch-player, but it comes via the ENGLISH DEFENCE.

Today for example i faced it versus GM Alterman:

1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.Nc3 Bb7 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.Qc2 f5 6.g3 Nf6 7.Bg2 O-O 8.O-O Bc3 9.Qc3 ...here i played Be4 and developed with d6/Nbd7/Qe8/Qh5 etc.

I was surprised that GM Alterman had the position already in 1992 versus GM Dreev, who played 9...d6 with Nbd7/Qe7/a5/Rae8/Be4

It would be great to get a A84/85-survey in near future in our section, especially about such positions which arises from the ENGLISH DEFENCE!

I will offer here a further line of the A84-complex:

1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.Nf3 Bb7 4.g3...
here Bb4 is succesfull but i usually play f5.
4...f5 5.Bg2 Nf6 6.O-O Be7 7.d5 O-O 8.Nc3 Na6 9.Nd4 Nc5 10.b3 Qe8 11.Bb2 etc

Would be great to learn whether there are opening-books which handle these positions on the market!

Greetings from Germany,

SutterCane

Simon William's book "Play the Classical Dutch" has a short chapter (10 pages) on the line after 1. d5 f5 2. c4 e6 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Bb4+.  He seems to think that this line is underestimated, and that Black can equalize in all variations.  He may be right, although in my opinion his book seems to be slightly over-optimistic about Black's chances in various places. 

My personal experience is that a lot of White players are using a flexible 1. Nf3/English move order these days instead of playing 1. d4, (i.e.,delaying d2-d4 until Black commits to one of the various Dutch systems), against which the Bb4+ idea seems less effective (it's not check!), so you would definitely have to have a backup system (i.e., a mainline Ilyin-Zhenevsky, or maybe a Stonewall, although there are problems with the Bf8-d6 Stonewalls against this move order too, so it would probably have to be a Bf8-e7 Stonewall).

     One nice thing that I'm finding about the Leningrad Dutch is that, once you get past the various gambits/Bg5 lines against the Dutch, you can play the Leningrad set-up against virtually any Nf3/c4/d4 move order.   

                         - Geof