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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3 (Read 19327 times)
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #28 - 11/02/06 at 07:37:44
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Uberdecker wrote on 10/31/06 at 12:08:43:
Sorry to be a spoilsport,

Thank you for the witty example!  You are not a "spoilsport"-- i meant to stir up discussion, not to seek credit or attributions.  Which is why my first line was, "Hi I am a patzer rated 1720".  Nimzo's idea of Nc6-e7-g6 is logical.  I do think that f7-f5 is sounder when White has blown a tempo on c2-c3, since (as i understand it), the way for white to undermine a stonewall setup is with c2-c4 and rook play on the c-file.

I know C.Wisnewski has opined that 4.e3 is white's best, though i don't know the basis for that opinion.
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #27 - 10/31/06 at 12:34:54
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Wasn´t there a game on one of the updates recently with 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e3!? It all ended up rosy for WHite, although hard to believe this is cutting edge stuff!
  
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Re: Chigorin-Stonewall (?)
Reply #26 - 10/31/06 at 12:08:43
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Sorry to be a spoilsport, but the idea of reaching a favourable Stonewall structure via a Chigorin move-order is at least over a century old ! I am refrerring to the very first Tarrasch-Nimzowitsch encounter (Nuremberg, 1904) : 

[b]1. d4 d5 ; 2. c4 Ktc6 ; 3. Ktf3 Bg4 ; 4. e3 e6 ; 5. Ktc3 Bxg4 [/b]"Quite possibly a bad move, but bearing in mind what follows what a beautiful challenge! 'I couldn't care less about the theory of lost tempi!' That is what this move says. Black does not fear to spare White the move h3 since he wants to know whether White will recapture on -f3 with Q or pawn." -Nimzo ; [b]6. Qxf3 [/b]"After the recapture with the pawn, White's centre would forfeit much of its expansion potential." Typically without further comment or any variations to justify Black's decision on move 5 -UD ; [b]6. ...Ktce7 [/b]"So, the pursuit of the primitive (i.e. mate) appealed to my eighteen-year-old point of view. In fact, Black acheives a good position by novel means and what arose from my revolutionary logic was the transposition from one opening to another." -Nimzo ; [b]7. Bd3 c6 ; 8. 0-0 f5 ; 9. Bd2 Ktf6[/b] "By playing ...Qd7 followed by ...Kth6, ...Ktg6 and ...Bd6, Black could, in my opinion have acheived a satisfactory Stonewall setup. After the text, Black is faced with a sea of troubles"-Nimzo ; [b]10. cd cd[/b] "Here I adhered too closely to my blockading principles. Now I would play 10. ...ed with the idea 11. Bxf5 Ktxf5 ; 12. Qxf5 Bd6 and so on. Black would continue by developing his Q and QR on the K-file which would place severe obstacles in the path of White's conversion of his extra pawn. It was at this point that Tarrasch made use of his own 'stratagem" -Nimzo. "Tarrasch, folding his arms across his chest, suddenly made the following pronouncement :'[i]Never[/i] in my life have I had such a [i]won game[/i] after ten moves as I have now!' " -Nimzo.

Black gradually built a strong attack for his pawn, but on the 27th move let the win slip by inaccurate calculation. The game ended in a draw.


source : Keene/Aron Nimzowitsch : A Reappraisal
  
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #25 - 10/25/06 at 15:49:58
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Christoph,

Of course i know this is not a new invention.  I couldn't find any analysis of it so i put some together for myself.

Funny you mention that game because I included that game in the PGN that i put together.

PGN:
http://s95395959.onlinehome.us/public/chess/openings/B%20%21_chigorin/chigorin%2...

BTW, I look forward to your book for Everyman, "1...Nc6"
Smiley
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #24 - 10/25/06 at 05:19:43
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This idea is not new to me. I played this way against Hort at the German Ch in 2005.

I can give you the game for now, although it currently is not annotated. Maybe I'll get around to annotate it sooner or later...

Hort,V (2524) - Wisnewski,C (2409) [D02]
GER ch 2005

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bf4 Bg4 4.Nbd2 e6 5.c3 Bd6 6.Bg3 f5 7.e3 Nh6 8.Qb3 Rb8 9.Bxd6 cxd6 10.c4 Bxf3 11.gxf3 dxc4 12.Bxc4 d5 13.Bb5 0-0 14.f4 Na5 15.Qb4 a6 16.Be2 Nc6 17.Qa3 Rc8 18.Nf3 Qa5+ 19.Qxa5 Nxa5 20.Ne5 Nf7 21.Nd7 Rfe8 22.Nc5 Nd6 23.Bd3 Re7 24.Ke2 Kf7 25.Rhc1 Rec7 26.b3 Nc6 27.Kd1 a5 28.a3 Nb8 29.Na4 Nd7 30.Rxc7 Rxc7 31.Rc1 Rxc1+ 32.Kxc1 b6 ½-½

  

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Chigorin-Stonewall (?)
Reply #23 - 10/24/06 at 23:44:49
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Hi, I am a patzer rated 1720 USCF.  I picked up the Chigorin QGD but soon discovered that most 1.d4 players at my (low) level play the dull and somewhat unimaginative COLLE and LONDON systems.

I noticed that Colle & London (esp. the move c2-c3) are not effective against the Dutch defence and so I wondered if Black could go for a Dutch setup with a Chigorin move-order.  Having played 1...d5, the only available Dutch structure is the Stonewall.

I consulted Bronznik (English ed.) and Lane (IBMCO:B) but neither book covers the idea (early f7-f5) in any depth.

So i attempted some analysis on my own, and posted the result:
http://s95395959.onlinehome.us/public/chess/openings/B%20%21_chigorin/chigorin%2...

I know that IM's and GM's post here and I am only B-class.  So I am not under any illusions about this analysis being "correct".  I only offer it as food for thought and i'd be interested to hear stronger players' reactions to the idea.

Thx.
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #22 - 07/13/06 at 06:10:42
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alumbrado wrote on 05/07/03 at 04:22:15:
There is another option for White after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 - namely 3.Bg5!? - compared with the line 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5?! Black can't now play ...c6 or ...c5 and ...Qb6 to embarrass the b2 pawn.

As well as being a pretty good move, it seems not to have been mentioned anywhere as far as I can see and would certainly annoy me if I were trying to reach the Chigorin woth Black!


I've generally just ignored it and played 3...Bf5, 4...Qd7
possibly Black will follow up with ...f6, and maybe ...e5 if White has thrown in c4
3...Bf5 nearly always gets a look up though, as opponents find being ignored a bit disconcerting

Smiley
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #21 - 08/26/05 at 12:12:18
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@CWisnewski

Danke Schoen, 
Cpacibo Bolshoi,
Grazie, 
Gracias, 
Merci, 

And so on...
  
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re: Fernando Semprun
Reply #20 - 08/26/05 at 09:49:51
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If you feel at ease with english rather than german, you should consider buying Bronznik's book on the subject "The Chigorin Defence". It has just been released in july, and it's an updated version of the previous book published in german.

Look at the review at Chesscafe web site by Hansen (http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen72.pdf). It's quite good !
  
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #19 - 08/26/05 at 07:35:17
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The annotations now have been translated.

See above for the game!
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #18 - 08/26/05 at 00:14:20
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@all

You are right, it is about time that I translate my annotations Smiley

I will do so in the next few days.
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #17 - 08/25/05 at 23:34:23
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Cwisnewski,

If I am not asking for too much, could you translate the annotation in English and post it? Preferrably in a pgn friendly form. Or else, cut and paste technology will always come in handy and so no worry there. Wink

Thanks
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #16 - 08/25/05 at 22:37:04
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@Cwisnewski, 

Hi, 

It's been a couple of months since you mentioned a possible translation to English in this line.  Have there been any new developments that we need to know about?

Also, is 1...d5 2...Nc6 a good way to meet the Catalan?  Your notes seem to suggest it is.
  
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #15 - 06/23/05 at 09:10:47
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EDIT: --- The game annotations are now in English ---

Another game I played with the Chigorin. This game is from the last season in the German Bundesliga and shows how Black can achieve a good game against 3. g3 if White plays careless (Again, annotations are in german, but I shall translate them as soon as there is time, and given there is interest):

Krasenkow,M (2676) - Wisnewski,C (2392) [A00]
German Bundesliga (9), 30.01.2005

1.Ng1-f3 Nb8-c6 2.d2-d4 d7-d5 3.g2-g3 Bc8-g4 4.Bf1-g2 e7-e6 5.c2-c3?! 

A passive move, which is unable to guarantee any opening advantage [5.c2-c4 is normal here and should be played if White wants to achieve any advantage, although I believe that Black can equalize. This can be done with 5...Bf8-d6! in order to keep control of e5. Possible continuations are: (5...Ng8-f6? 6.Nf3-e5! gives Black problems.) 6.0-0 Ng8-f6 7.Nb1-c3 (7.b2-b3 0-0 8.Bc1-b2 Nf6-e4 9.Nb1-c3 (9.Nf3-e1 Bg4-h5 10.Nb1-d2 f7-f5 11.Ne1-d3 a7-a5! with black initiative.) 9...f7-f5!? 10.c4xd5 e6xd5 11.Nc3xd5 Bd6xg3 12.h2xg3 Qd8xd5 with a good game for black thanks to his control of the light squares; 7...0-0 (Not 7...Nf6-e4? because of 8.c4xd5 e6xd5 9.Qd1-b3±) 8.c4xd5 (8.Bc1-g5 d5xc4 9.Qd1-a4 (9.e2-e4? Bd6-e7 and d4 is completely weak.) 9...h7-h6 10.Bg5xf6 (10.Bg5-c1 Nf6-d5 11.Qa4xc4 Nc6-a5 12.Qc4-d3 Nd5-b4 13.Qd3-d1 Na5-c4 also gives active play for Black.) 10...Qd8xf6=+; 8...Nf6xd5 9.e2-e4 Nd5-b6 10.b2-b3 (10.Bc1-e3 Nb6-c4=) 10...Bd6-b4 11.Bc1-b2 f7-f5! and the white centre is about to get busted.] 

5...Bf8-d6 6.Qd1-b3 Ra8-b8 

This move is typical for various systems where White plays Qb3. Black protects his b-pawn and moves his rook away from the h1-a8 diagonal. Additionally, a possible advance ...b7-b5-b4 can be an idea in certain positions.

7.0-0 Ng8-f6 8.Bc1-g5 h7-h6 9.Bg5xf6 Qd8xf6 10.Nb1-d2 0-0 11.e2-e4 Bg4xf3!? 

It seems that Krasenkov, who played quite fast up til now, underestimated this move.

12.Bg2xf3 

[12.Nd2xf3 seems better. White does not have much after 12...d5xe4 13.Nf3-d2 Rf8-d8 14.Nd2xe4 Qf6-e7 but at least Black has not been able to fully equalize yet.] 

12...d5xe4 13.Bf3xe4 e6-e5= 

The opening phase is complete, Black has equalized.

14.d4-d5?! 

It is understandable that my opponent, with an ELO plus of nearly 300 points, is not happy with a draw being White. Yet, it is dangerous for White to continue in this fashion [14.d4xe5 Nc6xe5 15.Nd2-c4 Ne5xc4 16.Qb3xc4 is one possibility how the position can completely dry out.] 

14...Nc6-e7 15.c3-c4 b7-b6=+ 

The structure that has arisen satisfied me. Black was able to build up a successful blockade on the dark squares to keep the white pawn majority on the queen side from advancing, while chances on the kingside, especially through a possible advance ...f7-f5 are retained.

16.Be4-c2 Ne7-c8?+= 

I was angry about this maneuver when my opponent played his next move. Originally I intended to transfer my Bishop to c5 in order to free d6 for my Knight, but there is a lack of time [16...Qf6-g5!=+ with the idea ...f7-f5 is much better. After 17.Nd2-e4 Qg5-g6 18.Ne4xd6 (otherwise Black can even take with the c-pawn on d6 after ...f7-f5)  18...Qg6xd6 followed by ...f7-f5 and ...e5-e4, the black knight is superior to the white bishop] 

17.Ra1-e1 a7-a5 

I invested 45 minutes into this move without getting any further. I hoped to gain some time, since I thought that my opponent had to react to Bb4 (with the "threat" of trading the bishop on d2 for the knight) with a3. [Originally I planned 17...Qf6-d8?, which was the reason why I played  16...Nc8 spielte. I wanted to play ...f7-f5 and that Qf6 again. But now I realised that 18.Nd2-f3! would be very strong since Black has problems to protect his e-pawn. (18.Qb3-f3 to prevent ...f7-f5 is good as well.) 18...Qd8-f6 (18...Rf8-e8 19.c4-c5! Bd6xc5 20.Nf3xe5±; 18...Qd8-e7 19.Qb3-e3 Rf8-e8 20.Bc2-a4±) 19.c4-c5! Bd6xc5 20.Nf3xe5±] 

18.Nd2-e4?? 

This move (and the idea that comes with it) is utterly dreadful. [After 18.a2-a3 I certainly would have tried 18...Ld6-c5. White wins a pawn after (18...Qf6-g5? 19.Nd2-f3 Qg5-h5 20.Qb3-d3 g7-g6 21.Bc2-d1!± is not what I wanted.) 19.Nd2-e4 Qf6-e7 20.Ne4xc5 Qe7xc5 21.Re1xe5 but at least Black can coordinate his forces and has the better minor piece 21...Sc8-d6 with a better position for White.] 

18...Qf6-e7 

Now Black can play his long planned advance ...f7-f5 without being forced to take care about e5. 

19.f2-f4 

Nearly forced. White cannot allow Black to gain space with ...f7-f5 and ...e5-e4.

19...e5xf4 20.Qb3-d3 f7-f5 21.Ne4xd6 Qe7xd6 22.Rf1xf4 Qd6-c5+ 23.Kg1-g2 

[23.Dd3-e3 does not force Black to trade, he can play 23...Nc8-d6! instead. The pawn structure on the queen side will be slightly weakened, but White cannot exploit this. Black will trade rooks and retain a clear advantage in the upcoming minor piece ending. 24.Qe3xc5 b6xc5 25.b2-b3 Rf8-f6 with the idea Kf8 and Re8] 

23...Nc8-d6=+ 

Black has everything was he has ever dreamed of. The white pawns on the queen side are completely blocked, and he has the superior minor piece.

24.g3-g4?! 

In beginning time trouble White loses the thread. [After 24.Re1-e6 b6-b5 (24...Rb8-e8 25.Qd3-e2 Re8xe6 26.Qe2xe6+ Kg8-h8 27.Bc2xf5 is nothing for Black.) 25.c4xb5 Rb8xb5 26.Bc2-b3 Rb5-b4 27.Rf4xb4 Qc5xb4=+ Black still needs to show some technique, as it is not easy to reach the white king in this line.] 

24...b6-b5!-/+ 

"A very strong move", as annotator GM Hort mentioned in the live coverage. The white position now collapses.

25.c4xb5 

[25.g4xf5? b5xc4-+] 

25...Rb8xb5 26.g4xf5 

[26.b2-b3 does not help either 26...Rb5-b4! 27.Re1-f1 (27.Rf4xb4? Qc5xb4 with attack on e1 and g4.) 27...Rf8-e8 and Black gains control of the e-file: 28.g4xf5 Re8-e3 29.Qd3-d2 Re3-e5 30.f5-f6 Re5-g5+ 31.Kg2-h3 (31.Kg2-h1? Rb4xf4 32.Qd2xf4 (32.Rf1xf4 Qc5-g1#) 32...Qc5xd5+-+; 31...Rg5xd5-+] 

26...Rb5xb2 27.Re1-e2 Rf8-e8 28.Re2xe8+ 

[After 28.Rf4-f2 Re8xe2 29.Rf2xe2 Qc5-c4! there are just to many weaknesses.] 

28...Nd6xe8 29.Rf4-c4 Qc5-e7 30.a2-a4 Qe7-g5+ 31.Kg2-h3 

An uncomfortable position with two minutes left for ten moves. The king will be hunted down soon, but it shows that other moves are no better. [31.Kg2-h1 Rb2-a2! 32.Qd3-d1 (32.Qd3-c3 Qg5-c1+ 33.Kh1-g2 Ra2-a1-+ and Black storms the back door) 32...Qg5-f6! 33.Qd1-e2 Ne8-d6 34.Rc4-f4 Kg8-h8 with a crumbling position for White.; 
31.Qd3-g3? Qg5-d2+ 32.Qg3-f2 (32.Kg2-h1 Rb2xc2-+) 32...Qd2xd5+ 33.Rc4-e4 Ne8-f6-+] 

31...Ne8-f6 32.Qd3-f3 Qg5-d2 33.Qf3-c3 

[33.Qf3-d3 Qd2xd3+ 34.Bc2xd3 Nf6xd5-+ and Black trades initiative for a winning material advantage.] 

33...Qd2-c1!? 

[33...Qd2xc3+ 34.Qc4xc3 Nf6xd5 35.Bc2-b3 Rb2-d2 is also possible, but I was not in the mood for a rook ending.] 

34.Rc4xc7?? 

The final mistake. [34.Qc3-d3 is the only move to keep the game going, but defence remains difficult: 34...Qc1-g1 and White has probems to avoid Zugzwang (!). 35.Qd3-f3 Rb2-a2 36.Qf3-d3 (36.Rc4xc7?? Ra2-a3!-+) 36...Ra2-a1! with the idea ...Ta1-f1 to prevent the white queen from accessing f3.] 

34...Dc1-f1+ 

White resigned in view of 34...Qc1-f1+ 35.Kh3-g3 (35.Kh3-h4 Qf1-f4+ 36.Kh4-h3 Qf4-g4#) 35...Qf1-g1+ 36.Kg3-f3 Qg1-g4+ 37.Kf3-e3 (37.Kf3-f2 Nf6-e4+-+) 37...Nf6xd5+-+

0-1
« Last Edit: 08/26/05 at 07:34:27 by IM Christoph Wisnewski »  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #14 - 06/20/05 at 14:21:19
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Ok, I reviewed the line Sulava played against me in Cappelle La Grande 2001. He did not take on c6, so I am afraid I cannot give any more insight (yet). 

I am sure that I have had some experience on the internet (ICC), but did not have the time yet to dig some games up (will do later when I am at home again).

Nevertheless, I will post my game against Sulava. In my opinion, Black comfortably equalized after 7...e5

Sulava,N [2526] - Wisnewski,C [2328] [D02]
Cappelle La Grande 2001 (1), 24.02.2001

1.Sg1-f3 Sb8-c6 2.d2-d4 d7-d5 3.e2-e3 Lc8-g4 4.Lf1-b5 e7-e6 5.Sb1-d2 Sg8-e7 6.c2-c3 a7-a6 7.Lb5-d3 e6-e5 8.h2-h3 Lg4xf3 9.g2xf3 g7-g6 10.h3-h4 h7-h5 11.f3-f4 e5-e4 12.Ld3-c2 b7-b5 13.f2-f3 Se7-f5 14.Ke1-f2 Lf8-e7 15.f3xe4 Le7xh4+ 16.Kf2-f3 d5xe4+ 17.Lc2xe4 Dd8-f6 18.Le4-d5 g6-g5 19.Sd2-e4 g5-g4+ 20.Kf3-g2 Df6-g6 21.Se4-c5 Lh4-e7 22.e3-e4 Sf5-h4+ 23.Th1xh4 Le7xh4 24.Dd1-h1 Lh4-e7 25.f4-f5 Dg6-f6 26.e4-e5 Sc6xe5 27.d4xe5 Df6xe5 28.Ld5-c6+ Ke8-d8 29.Dh1-d1+ Le7-d6 30.Lc1-g5+ f7-f6 31.Sc5-e6+ Kd8-e7 32.Lg5-f4 De5xf5 33.Lf4xd6+ c7xd6 34.Se6-d4 Df5-c8 35.Dd1-e2+ Ke7-f8 36.Ta1-e1 Ta8-a7 37.De2-e8+ Dc8xe8 38.Te1xe8+ Kf8-g7 39.Sd4-e6+ Kg7-f7 40.Te8xh8 Kf7xe6 41.Th8xh5 f6-f5 42.a2-a4 b5xa4 43.Lc6xa4 Ta7-b7 44.b2-b3 Ke6-e5 45.Th5-h1 d6-d5 46.Th1-e1+ Ke5-f4 47.Te1-e6 a6-a5 48.Te6-a6 Tb7-e7 49.Ta6xa5 Te7-e2+ 50.Kg2-f1 Kf4-f3 51.Ta5xd5 Te2-f2+ 52.Kf1-e1 Tf2-e2+ 53.Ke1-d1 f5-f4 54.La4-c6 Kf3-f2 55.Td5-g5 Te2-e1+ 56.Kd1-d2 Te1-e2+ 57.Kd2-d3 g4-g3 58.Tg5-g4 f4-f3 59.b3-b4 g3-g2 60.b4-b5 Te2-e1 61.c3-c4 g2-g1D 62.Tg4xg1 Te1xg1 63.c4-c5 Kf2-g3 64.Lc6xf3 Kg3xf3 65.b5-b6 Tg1-d1+ 66.Kd3-c4 Kf3-e4 67.c5-c6 Td1-c1+ 68.Kc4-b5 Ke4-d5 69.c6-c7 Kd5-d6 70.Kb5-a6 Tc1xc7 71.b6xc7 Kd6xc7 ½-½
  

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