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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3 (Read 19326 times)
IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #13 - 06/19/05 at 03:52:21
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Sulava played this line (or something similar) against me in Cappelle La Grande 2001.

I obtained a superior position after the opening but in the end "only" achieved a draw (although at this time that was a big achievement, since I only had 2320 at this time and he was being rated 2530).

I am not at home (again), but will be tomorrow. I can dig up the game then and post it here, maybe it will give some insights.
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #12 - 06/18/05 at 19:41:26
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I agree that black should castle short against 3.g3, with good prospects.
On 3.e3!? however, I have to add something:
3.e3 Bg4 4.Bb5 e6 now Christoph thinks that black should play Nge7, g6 and Bg7.
But 4.Bc6:!? was played several times by Sulava (until he lost to Brynell).
That game went 4. ... bc6: 5.c4 Bf3: (it seems to be clear now that Knights are superior to bishops  Wink) 6.gf3: (why not 6.Qf3? Anyway, black seems to be OK after c5) c5 and black shouldn't have problems.
But there are other tries for white:
4.h3 seems to be quite annoying, on 4. ... Bh5 white plays 5.c4 e6 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.g4! Bg6 8.Nh4 Bb4 9.Ng6: hg6: 10.Bg2 
and white has some pressure.
Should black play 4. ... Bf3: 5.Qf3: e5 6.Bb5 Qd6 like Hector 
did in his game against Grant?
His play seemed to be quite adventurous there.
Other tries are not that dangerous.
Against 4.Nbd2, the game Dizdarevic-Fercec is a wonderful display of blacks chances in this type of position:

[Event "Bizovac Metalis op 12th"]
[Site "Bizovac"]
[Date "2005.02.24"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Dizdarevic,Emir"]
[Black "Fercec,Nenad"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D02"]
1.Nf3 d5 2.e3 Nc6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Nbd2 e6 5.h3 Bh5 6.a3 Nf6 7.c4 Be7 8.b4 0-0 
9.Bb2 Ne4 10.Be2 f5 11.0-0 Bf6 12.Rc1 Ne7 13.b5 Kh8 14.a4 Bxf3 15.Nxf3 Ng6 16.Qc2 Rc8 
17.Nd2 Bg5 18.Nxe4 dxe4 19.Rcd1 c6 20.bxc6 bxc6 21.Bc3 Bh6 22.g3 Nh4 23.Rb1 Qg5 24.Rb7 Nf3+ 
25.Kg2 Nh4+ 26.Kh1 Nf3 27.Qd1 f4 28.exf4 Rxf4 29.gxf4 Qf5 30.Kg2 Nh4+ 0-1
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #11 - 06/16/05 at 11:45:06
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I concur, the line with 3...Bg4 and 4...Qd7 followed by ...0-0-0 is dangerous for Black.

However, Black can play differently. A nice setup is 3...Bg4 4.Bg2 e6!, e.g. 5.0-0 Bd6 (but NOT 5...Nf6? when 6.Ne5! is annoying) followed by Nf6. Depending on White's (re-)action, Black can, in my opinion, achieve a good game.
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #10 - 06/16/05 at 04:59:58
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I'd like to warn Black players - do not underestimate the line 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3!? I also thought "what a nice way to get an attacking position with Black" and ventured into that line. You can see the result: 
White "Spassov, Liuben"]
[Black "Semkov, Semko"
1992
1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6?! 3. d4 Bg4 4. Bg2 Qd7 5. c4! e6 (5... dxc4 6. d5 with initiative) 6. O-O
O-O-O 7. Be3 Nge7 8. Nbd2 f6 9. b4! Nxb4 10. Rb1 Na6 11. Qb3 c6 12. Qa4 Nf5 13. Bf4 g5 14. Qxa6 gxf4 15. Qxa7 Qc7 16. cxd5 exd5 17. Rfc1 fxg3 18. hxg3 Bh6 19.
Rb2 Rde8 20. Nh2 Bxe2 21. Bh3 Bd3 22. Rc3 Be3 23. Ndf1 Rhg8 24. Bxf5+ Bxf5 25.Rxe3 Rxe3 26. Nxe3 Be4 27. Qa8+ Qb8 28. Qxb8+ Kxb8 29. Nhf1 1-0
I'm affraid, this line is just better for White.

  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #9 - 06/15/05 at 04:29:25
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I started playing the Chigorin Defence in 1999 after I have discovered the (at this time) terrific book by Dunnington.

I still use it as my only weapon against 1.d4, and even at a higher master level it served me quite well. I frequently use it even against IMs/GMs, and last season in the German Bundesliga I drew GM Gabriel (in a winning position, grr), lost to GM Nyback (but only after I blundered in an equal position) and beat GM Krasenkov (2671).   

I hope not to sound too confident (and I certainly do not want to brag with my results; I just want to give you an idea what a powerful weapon Chigorin can be), but I dare to consider myself an expert of this opening. Here are my two cents for the things already being mentioned.

First of all, I do think, too, that Black should play 2...Nc6! after 2.Nf3 - Although I do think that the best way for White to continue is 3.e3!? ... but I will cover this later.

Numerous possibilities have been mentioned here, which I will refer to one by one (Since 3.c4 transposes to main lines, I won't say anything about that in this topic):

3.Bf4

This line seems to be feared by some players, but just because it seems to be boring. Well, in a way it is, but in the same way it is just White giving up any hopes for an advantage. It is too much to describe the best setup, but I took the time to write a little summary with a few annotated games on my homepage. Unfortunately it is only in german, but it should be easy enough to understand. The link is:

http://www.schachmaterialien.de/Tschigorin/einleitungt0.htm

3.Bg5

I consider this a waste of time. Black can reply 3...f6! and obtain a good game. After 4.Bf4 Black gained a precious tempo after 4...Bg4 - f6 does not weaken the position but rather helps to support the important break ...e7-e5. White can't play 5.e3?? (5...e5 wins a piece) nor 5.Nbd2? (5...Nxd4 followed by ...e5 gives black an excellent game).

White can do 4.Bh4, but as already mentioned Black has the possibility of 4...Nh6 followed by ...Nf5. White is forced to retreat his bishop to g3, where it is harrassed by ...h5 (threatening ...h4). White will have to play h3 or h4 then, but after the trade on g3 the white pawn structure is severly crippled.

Finally it should be mentioned, that 3.e3!? is an interesting alternative. The idea is to play 4.Bb5! after 3...Bg4, with a possible threat of c4 followed by Qa4 and Ne5. Black has to play very carefully, I recommend a setup with ...e6 and ...Nge7 (do NOT develop the bishop to d6, it will have problems after a white c4), the bishop f8 is to be developed via g7. I haven't had much practical tests yet, but this looks interesting.
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #8 - 09/18/04 at 16:46:34
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I think I know a way to frustrate those solid characters.  The 3. Bf4 move is intended to block an e5 advance.  We should therfore trade it off to get an open game.

After 1. d2-d4 d7-d5 2. Ng1-f3 Nb8-c6 3. Bc1-f4 Bc8-g4 4. e2-e3 e7-e6 5. Nb1-d2 Bf8-d6   

White has 3 options:

Gary Lane recommends allowing the trade on f4 but then his 8. Qb3 only encourages an agressive queenside castle!

6.c3 Bxf4 7.exf4 Qd6 8.Qb3 O-O-O! 

If white exchanges on d6, we play to open the center with e5.

6.Bxd6 Qxd6 7.c3 Nf6 8.Bd3 e5

The retreat of the bishop to g3 looks like it strengthens our pin of the f3 knight and may lead to white not being able to castle.

6.Bg3 Bxg3 7.hxg3 Qd6 8.c3 Nf6 9.Bd3 e5
  
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #7 - 08/10/04 at 09:29:19
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I just started playing the Chigorin, and met 3.Nc3 (after 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5) I agree with Fernando Semprun that this is boring.  In the game I became adventurous and tried to spice things up by playing 3...f5 Shocked  trying to play like the dutch...

Looks quite interesting, what do you think?
  
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #6 - 10/04/03 at 14:06:53
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I had memorable game involving a double rook sacrifice in the 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bg5 line when I was in high school:

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bg5!? h6 4. Bh4 Bg4 5.e3 Qd7 6.h3 Bh5 7.c4 0-0-0 8. Nc3 dxc4 9.Bxc4 Nf6 10. g4 Bg6 11. Bb5 Nd5 12. Ne5 Nxc3 13. bxc3 Qd5 14. Bxc6 bxc6 15. Qa4!! Qxh1+ 16. Ke2 Qxa1 17. Qa6+ resigns (17...Kb8 18. Nxc6 Ka8 19.Qxa7#)
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #5 - 10/03/03 at 21:29:49
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After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bg5 is interesting.  What about 3...Qd6!? threatening ...Qb4+.  Black might be able to get in a decent ...f6 and ...e5.  Also interesting would be ...f6 and then ...Nh6.  3...h6 4.Bh4 g5 looks weakening but I'm not so sure it's that bad either.
  
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #4 - 05/07/03 at 04:22:15
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There is another option for White after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 - namely 3.Bg5!? - compared with the line 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5?! Black can't now play ...c6 or ...c5 and ...Qb6 to embarrass the b2 pawn.

As well as being a pretty good move, it seems not to have been mentioned anywhere as far as I can see and would certainly annoy me if I were trying to reach the Chigorin woth Black!

As a d4 player who often uses a 1.Nf3 move order, I ahve noticed that a surprising number of people play 1...Nc6, and I get this position quite often in blitz games at any rate.
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #3 - 05/06/03 at 15:28:29
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I'm not so sure about 3.Nc3...never seen it played.  Dunnington's book has the reply to 3.Bf4.  I know Black plays 3...Bg4, but unsure how it expands from there as it's been 4 years since I've played the Black side, and as White, I'd play 3.c4 (I have had a couple of tournament games start 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nc6 3.c4 Bg4, and now, instead of 4.cxd5, I'm beginning to look at 4.Nc3).

The book I have that I use at this point for the Chigorin doesn't cover 3.Bf4 as it's a reportoire book for White (Opening for White According to Kramnik, Volume 4).
  
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Fernando Semprun
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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #2 - 05/06/03 at 14:08:37
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Thanks! 

I've got Dunnington's book on the Catalan, and having recently bought my first German book (Tschetverik and Raetsky on the Catalan) I thought about geting their book on the Chigorin, also recommended by Watson

(Although my German is very basic, it is true that one can follow the book without much trouble)

What is black plan after something really boring like 3.Nc3, Bf4 , e3 , Be2 and 0-0? Wink
  

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Re: Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
Reply #1 - 05/06/03 at 13:21:33
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I played the Chigorin back in 1999.  Black should play 2...Nc6!  If White replies 3.c4, you have transposed to the 3.Nf3 variations of the Chigorin.  Otherwise, White really has only 2 legitimate replies aside from 3.c4, those being 3.Bf4 and 3.g3, neither of which cause Black any problems provided he knows the lines.  They are both quite insipid (kinda like the 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.e3 lines).  While the book is now 7 years old, I still would recommend getting Angus Dunnington's book on the Chigorin Queen's Gambit if you haven't gotten it yet.  It gives some brief coverage of what to do when White doesn't comply.
  
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Fernando Semprun
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Chigorin players vs 2.Nf3
05/06/03 at 12:39:56
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I have recently noticed that the Chigorin might be very interesting. Before embarking in any serious study, one BIG question:

What about if white doesnot play 2.c4 but, say 2.Nf3?

What is a Chigorin player supposed to do?

Thanks
  

Fernando Semprun
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