Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) g4 Dutch Gambit (Read 12764 times)
Wonderer
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #13 - 04/19/04 at 03:35:47
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I have also had great results with the Leningrad, but will branch out into other dutch systems as well.

One thing about all these early gambits is that black has easy equality after just a few moves by not accepting the gambit or as in the Staunton, accept and watch white empty all energy from his position just to get the e4 pawn back.

So even if they are obviously playable, I don't see why black should mind facing these amateur gambits.

But the dutch is an aquired taste, when I was a teenager playing 1.d4 I was also convinced that 1...f5 must be  bad. Then I lost a lot of blitz games against a friend of mine with the Staunton. (which didn't make me change my mind...  Cheesy )

About five years later I converted to 1.e4 and the King's Indian as black, won a lot of games in the Death variation (.-Nc6 d5 Ne7 etc), but started to lose against the Benko variation (g2-g4 in the above) and the Bayonett (9.b4). 

Then I rediscovered the Dutch Leningrad as it often gains a couple of tempii on the KID. Of course there were some set-back with early gambits like 2.e4 and 2.g4 etc, but once I'd checked them out and learnt which attitude one should have, they haven't been a problem, despite the occasional inevitable loss due to blunders.

My 1...f5 career then made me take up the King's Gambit, and generally I do think there is a strong connection between these. If someone plays the dutch he often also plays the KG. And if he gives one up, he'll usually give the other up as well... - which is why I was surprised to see a KG-player like CraigEvans disapprove of 1...f5!
  
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #12 - 04/19/04 at 01:32:10
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I must admit that i myself have done the same mistake as CraigEvans. When i face 1 f4 i feel an urge to refute this poor opening. However i play leningrad dutch with good results as black! I have even beated many IMs and even one GM in internet blitz with it.
  
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #11 - 04/18/04 at 21:35:45
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Maybe 1.d4 f5!? is not unorthodox enough?
  

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Wonderer
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #10 - 04/18/04 at 04:00:40
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Quote:
People have discussed the main lines plenty, but many people find enjoyment in considering something a little more unorthodox. It's a pity that some people refuse to open their minds to these alternatives...
- Craig Evans on 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nh3

Quote:
My opinion on the dutch is that it's a terrible opening, unsound, and anyone who plays it deserves more than the average quota of flattenings.

- Craig Evans on 1.d4 f5

A case of split personality?  Grin
  
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #9 - 04/17/04 at 13:14:56
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I spent quite some time on analyzing the position after 1.d4 f5 2.g4 fxg4 3.h3 d5 (why not holding onto the pawn, instead of returning it with g3) 4.hxg4 Bxg4, but I just could not find sufficient compensation for white with accurate play from black (it was =+ in all variations, and often even close to -/+). 

How should white play? Any suggestions? Maybe white should consider other 4th moves.
  
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spakus
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #8 - 12/30/03 at 12:21:28
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Thanks, Craig

I have played the Danish from time to time, and when my opp. takes the pawns I usually win easily, but the Move 3. Qe7 has always driven me crazy.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #7 - 12/30/03 at 08:25:15
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In the game you posted, white lost from playing a dodgy exchange sac. Instead, after 9.Bxg4 Nxg4, 10.Qg3! Nf6 11.Bxc7 Qd7 12.O-O-O assures white at least a small edge - I dont see where black will be castling; towards the open c-file or the open g- and h-files?

Usually in the Scotch/Danish/Goring complex, black can take the pawn but has to return material in the best lines for other advantages, or has to play the most accurate moves to hold to the endgame with the extra booty. In the From, white can grab the pawns on e5 and d6 and, as long as he knows what he's doing, can survive. In Winning With The Dutch, black is advised to decline all these gambits because they give white too much - reason alone for dismissing your comment about them being "insane amateur gambits".  Surely if black can't accept, then the gambits are fully justified? 

Finally, in your anti-h3 line, playing 4.Bf4! again gives white a position with attacking chances - what he was after when he offered a pawn. Indeed play can (again!) transpose to the Qd3 gambit line after Bf4, but even if objectively the position is equal or unclear, white is the one who'll have all the fun I personally think. 

As for the other question (which wasn't addressed to me, but still!), I personally take the pawns, let white prove he knows more about the opening than I do. But if I was to decline it, I'd choose 3...Qe7, a very tricky line for white to handle.

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Craig Grin
  

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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #6 - 12/29/03 at 22:10:16
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I know this is a bit off topic, but AmateurDragoneer said the Danish Gambit can be deadly for black if he accepts the c3 and b2 pawns.  I belive this to be true as well and there are many ways to decline the Danish.  I just wanted to know how Dragoneer would decline it.

Sorry for being off topic, I just couldn't help myself
  
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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #5 - 12/29/03 at 20:00:46
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Don't know why that second Nf6 is there, it should be 1. d4 f5 2. h3 Nf6 3. g4 d5! which is at least equal for Black, possibly even better for Black. Anyway, I guess then you can view my response as an equally biased "opinion of your opinion". Getting back to the analysis, regarding your line with 2. Qd3, consider the following game which transposes by about move 8 or so:

[Event "Rilton Cup U18 26th"]
[Site "Stockholm"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Larsson,Victor"]
[Black "Nawrocki,Piotr"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "A80"]
1.d4 f5 2.g4 d5 3.Bf4 fxg4 4.h3 Nf6 5.hxg4 Bxg4 6.Bh3 Nc6 7.Qd3 g6 8.Nc3 e6 9.Bxg4 Nxg4 10.Rxh7 Rxh7 11.Qxg6+ Rf7 12.Qxe6+ Qe7 13.Qxg4 Rg7 14.Qh5+ Qf7 15.Qxf7+ Rxf7 16.e3 0-0-0 17.0-0-0 Bb4 18.Nge2 a6 19.a3 Bxc3 20.Nxc3 Rdd7 21.Ne2 Nd8 22.Bg3 Ne6 23.Nf4 Nxf4 24.Bxf4 b6 25.Kd2 Rde7 26.Ke2 Rxf4 27.Rh1 Rxd4 28.f3 Rc4 0-1

Also, just because gambits cannot or should not be accepted is no reason to dismiss an opening, certain lines of the Scotch gambit, Danish Gambit, Goring Gambit can be deadly for black if he accepts the c3 and b2 pawns. Also, many White players refuse the e5 and d6 pawns in the From's Gambit, that doesn't make the bird a bad opening.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #4 - 12/29/03 at 15:36:52
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Firstly, I said it was my opinion. I am not an all-knowing oracle, and my opinion is also that openings like the latvian are playable, where most GMs would argue. And let's not forget that some masters have called the Dragon unsound too - it's their opinion, not a fact. 

Now, onto some analysis. The first point to note here is that black, according to your "prepared player" statement, has to decline all these gambits. Already I'd say white has a psychological advantage if he can offer one of these "insane amateur gambits" (Korchnoi probably would be quite unhappy at being called an amateur) and black can't afford to accept. 

Okay, I'm unsure about your line against 2.h3 - 2...Nf6 3.g4 Nf6? I dont think this is possible. If you mean instead 3...Nc6, then I'd assess 4.d5 Ne5 5.Nf3 as at least equal - white can go q-side and the advanced k-side pawns will facilitate an attack, while in other lines the d5 pawn can be quite cramping. Maybe 5...g5 Ne4 6.Nc3 isn't so bad for white either - I'd rather be white in either of these positions. 

Secondly to your line against 2.Qd3, I dont have to go too far. After 2...d5 3.g4 g6, white shouldn't be even considering 4.gxf5 Bxf5 after his opening. Instead, 4.Nc3! seems the strongest continuation. I'm playing a gambit here, not a dull positional opening - if white plays something like g4 then switches to quiet play, he will indeed be worse. However, 4.Nc3 and then black, unless he wants to go back into the accepted gambit lines with 4...fxg4 (on which, either 5.h3 or 5.Bf4 seem to offer white more than enough compensation), or what else? 4...Nc6 or 4...Bg7 can both be met by 5.Bf4, where I prefer white's chances.
Finally, 2.g4 I did say to be playable, but not the best of these lines. Your line for black is the most commonly played, but again I like white's postion, even if the g-file hasn't been successfully opened. 

The dutch was intended as an aggressive, counter-attacking opening. But when there are such a range of clearly playable gambit lines where black does better to turn it down, and white still has his attacking chances - this I dont consider to be sound. I'm not saying that it means it's unplayable, it's just an opinion. There's no fully standardized definition of "sound" and "unsound", and it depends as much on personal preference. Try telling Johnny Hector (or maybe our very own Tony Kosten!) that the latvian is unsound, I doubt you'll get them to agree. The Hungarian master Kadas would never admit to 1.h4 being unsound. I'm not the only person to think the dutch is unsound, and you're not the only person to disagree with that statement. 

And playing one correspondence game in the line will not change the assessment - I'm certain if I did beat you in a miniature you'd still claim that the dutch was fully sound, and if I lost quickly I'd still think the dutch a rotten opening. C'est la vie!

Regards, 
Craig  Grin
  

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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #3 - 12/21/03 at 14:56:20
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The Dutch is quite sound and there is a reason why almost no one plays these insane amateur gambits that will only do good against unprepared players. 1. d4 f5 2. h3? Nf6 3. g4 Nf6! and black has at least a small advantage. 2. Qd3 d5 3. g4 g6 4. gxf5 Bxf5 5. Qb5 Nc6 =. Lastly, 2. g4 fxg4 3. h3 g3! 4. fxg3 Nf6= The Dutch is an agressive, counterattacking opening which is even more of an aggressive counter to 1. d4 (or c4, or Nf3) then either the Benoni or the KID. Craig, I would gladly play a correspondence game against you to prove my point! My handle is mitchst on both gameknot.com and brainking.com
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #2 - 12/20/03 at 16:11:03
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My opinion on the dutch is that it's a terrible opening, unsound, and anyone who plays it deserves more than the average quota of flattenings. (This being said, I played it OTB for the first time to defeat a bogey player in my league only two days ago, but I went in via 1...e6)
Anyway, where was I... oh yes. I appreciate pretty much every attempt to blow the dutch into oblivion.

2.g4 isn't the best of these lines, but it's playable. 2.h3, however, is a brilliant move which refutes the dutch completely!  Grin

Okay, maybe a little extreme, but I think the 2.h3 and 2.Qd3 lines (both intending 3.g4) are good for white, especially the former as, with comparison to the 2.g4 gambit, the option of keeping the files closed with ...g3 is no longer available. 

Still, I suppose that black's position is  just about defensible - but I'd rather be on the white side of the board, and indeed if I know my opponent plays the dutch, I will play 1.d4 instead of my normal (and almost exclusive) 1.e4. Other than the occasional 1.h4 outing, which I save for IECC these days.

Hope this was somehow helpful even with my insane rambling!

Regards, 
Craig  Grin
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Re: g4 Dutch Gambit
Reply #1 - 12/01/03 at 19:21:46
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I personally think it's good only for surprise value.  1.d4 f5 2.g4 d5 and 2...fxg4 3.h3 g3! being good responses.  Having said that I don't mean to imply that White is worse, if you like those positions then you might do well with this gambit.
  
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g4 Dutch Gambit
12/01/03 at 16:35:12
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I know I've seen d4 f5 g4!?  a few times...but wondered if it has any practical value.  I believe that the variation d4 f5 h3 (intending g4) is called the Korchnoi Variation, so perhaps it can't be all bad?  Perhaps white can gain some sort of kingside initiative for a measly pawn?   

I know I've seen a game or two with an interesting Rxh7 tactic...

Does anyone know anything about this system?

NeX iRae
  
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