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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dutch with 2. Bg5!? (Read 10228 times)
Losetowin
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #12 - 04/13/04 at 12:16:14
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No other than Kasparov himself has set the line   1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bh4 g5 4. e3 Nf6 5. Bg3 d6 6. h4 Rg8?!under question.  He continued 7 hxg5 hxg5 8 nc3! (6...c4 was cited by amteurdragoner) e6 9 f3! qe7 10 qd2 nc6 11 0-0-0 bd7 12 e4! when white is better.

The point of f3 is to take charge in center and by e4 and possibly d5 after that. 

Instead 6 ...g4 is recommended by Beim in his book. is not clear but i think black is fine, otherwise he would not have recommended it Wink
  
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #11 - 03/28/04 at 16:19:58
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Although I do not play the Dutch any more because it is  Lips Sealed, I used to play 2...c6 letting the Queen out.
  
"When I am White, I am because I am White. When I am Black, I win because I am Bogolyubov" (?!) - Efim Bogolyubov, noted chess player and optimist.
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Glenn Flear
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #10 - 01/12/04 at 09:44:09
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Dear Chessfriend,

Quite a few players try 2 Bg5 steering the game away from the Dutch players preferred type of position.

I have covered this line from time time over the last few months. See the e-book for full details!

However...

2...Nf6 is quite popular as top players don't seem to fear 3 Bxf6 these days.

Kindermann prefers 2...g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 dxe4 5 Nxe4 d5 avoiding structural problems
  
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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #9 - 01/06/04 at 18:47:09
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1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 g6 is perfectly fine for Black, even though it may be an inconvenience for Classical and Stonewall players. Kindermann gives 2...h6?! 3. Bh4 g5 4. e3 Nf6 5. Bg3 d6 6. h4 Rg8 7. hg5 hg5 8. c4! +=
  
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spakus
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #8 - 01/05/04 at 23:13:16
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Yes that would be great!  However, he obviously works with a different section so I don't know if he would even see this post, but Mr. Prie if you would like to comment on your fantastic game it would be greatly appreciated.
  
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RedIvan
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #7 - 01/05/04 at 00:49:28
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FYI on this line:

Here's an interesting game by none other than our own "d-pawn Specials" expert, GM Eric Prie:

[Event "FRA-ch"]
[Site "Narbonne"]
[Date "1997.08.25"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Prie, Eric"]
[Black "Santo Roman, Marc"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A80"]
[WhiteElo "2465"]
[BlackElo "2385"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[EventDate "1997.08.15"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1997.11.23"]

1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bh4 g5 4. e4 Nf6 5. e5 e6 6. exf6 Qxf6 7. Bg3 f4 8. Nf3
Nc6 9. c3 b6 10. Bb5 Bb7 11. Bxc6 dxc6 12. Nbd2 O-O-O 13. Qe2 c5 14. dxc5 Bxc5
15. O-O-O Rhe8 16. Ne4 Rxd1+ 17. Rxd1 Qf5 18. Nfd2 Bf8 19. f3 fxg3 20. hxg3 Bg7
21. Re1 Kb8 22. Kb1 Qa5 23. Nb3 Qa4 24. g4 Bd5 25. Qc2 Qd7 26. Ng3 Qf7 27. Nd2
Bf8 28. Nde4 Bg7 29. Nh5 Bh8 30. Nf2 Rd8 31. Qe2 e5 32. a3 Bb3 33. Ne4 Qd5 34.
Kc1 Qa5 35. Nd2 Bd5 36. Rd1 Qa4 37. Ne4 Qb3 38. c4 1-0

Perhaps he would be willing to share his thoughts on that game?
  
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spakus
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #6 - 01/02/04 at 21:43:17
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First of all thanks for taking the time to post the game.

and about the game I think white's 7th move is not best.  I think 7. Qh5+ is too early and leads to an exchange of queens which is not what white wants when he is on the attack.  Another possible line is 7. Bg3 f4 8. Nf3 when white will continue with c3, Bd3/b5 Nbd2 planning to castle on either side or not at all.

However, the combonation of black's 4th and 5th moves Nf6! and e6! is certainly a better plan than continuing with 4. Bg7

I would like to see what you think about my suggestion for white's 7th move.
  
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #5 - 01/01/04 at 21:51:45
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I played this line in a recent game, and won after a late opening blunder by my opponent. I'm not sure White had much from the opening, though.

White (2118) - Black (1910)
1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e4 Nf6 5.e5 e6! 6.exf6 Qxf6 7.Qh5+ Qf7 8.Be2 Qxh5 [ 8...Bg7!? 9.Bxg5? ( 9.c3;  9.Nc3) 9...hxg5 10.Qxg5 Bxd4 =+] 9.Bxh5+ Kd8 10.Bg3 [ 10.Nf3!?] 10...f4 11.Bxf4 gxf4 12.Ne2 Bg7 13.Nbc3 e5 [ 13...d5!?] 14.dxe5 Bxe5 15.0-0-0 Nc6 16.Nd5 d6? [ 16...Rf8 17.g3 +=] 17.Nexf4 +- 17...Bf5 18.Bg6 Bd7 19.Rhe1 Rf8 20.Nd3 Bg7 21.h3 Bf5 22.Bxf5 Rxf5 23.Ne3 Rf7 24.f4 b6 25.c3 Kd7 26.g4 Raf8 27.Kc2 Rxf4? 28.Nxf4 Rxf4 29.Nf5 Rf2+ 30.Rd2 Rxd2+ 31.Kxd2 Bf8 32.Re2 Ne5 33.Ke3 Ke6 34.Nd4+ Kd7 35.Nf3 Nc6 36.Kf4 1-0

10.Nf3 might offer White more, but my feeling is that Black's bishops compensate for the pawn structure and misplaced king. 8...Bg7 is worth a look for Black, too.
  
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spakus
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #4 - 12/29/03 at 17:42:42
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Also, in response to the post about transposing to the Dutch with 1. d6 or g6.  I don't think that is necessarily a great idea because I am a 1.d4 player and I respond to 1. d6 or g6 with 2. e4. because I like playing against the Pirc.  Of course many 1. d4 players wouldn't do that but some will, and if you are the kind of player that enjoys the counter attacking possibilities that the Dutch provides then being trapped into a Pirc may not be very fun.

However I think the 1. e6 idea followed by 2. f5 is a better idea because very few d4 players want to play against the French.  However if someone does decide to continue 2. e4 that would probably be even worse than having to play the Pirc.  The French is a grind it out defense that is totally different than the Dutch.

So, to tie all of my thoughts together I think if you want to play the Dutch 1. f5 is your best bet.
  
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spakus
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #3 - 12/29/03 at 17:30:34
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First of all thanks for the replies.

In the first line you give Craig, I certainly agree that white's play isn't great.  The continuation 3. e4 is good in my opinion it becomes a staunton that sidesteps some resources for black.

In the second line that begins 2. h6 the analysis given in Winning with the Dutch is incomplete.  I belive the move 5. Qh5+ is a mistake because it is too early.  If white waits for black to over extend himself then the game is much easier for white.

Also I will be eagerly awaiting your defensive resources for black after 9. Be2.  I'm not saying there are none, but in my expirence black always falls apart. 

example:  9. Be2 Nf6 10. e5 d6 11. Qxf4 dxe5 12.dxe5 Nd5 13. Bh5+ Kd7 14. Qg4+ Kc6 15. Qxg7 Bf5 16. Bf3 Kb6 17. Bxd5 Qxd5 18. Nc3 Qg8 19. Qxg8 black resigns 
(Karl Mah vs. Sebastian Siebrecht 1997)
  
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M.Nieuweboer
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #2 - 12/29/03 at 16:49:34
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Sure Black has defensive resources after 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5. But together with 2.Nc3 and 2.e4
this deviation leads to non-standard positions. The smart thing to do is to play 1...d6;
1...e6; or 1...g6 and only then 2...f5; Of course one must be willing to play the French or
the Pirc or so, but in my experience hardly any White 1.d4 goes for these transpositions.
  
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Re: Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
Reply #1 - 12/29/03 at 16:33:39
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Black has two moves against this, 2...g6 and 2...h6

2...g6 3.h4 Bg7 4.e3 h6 5.Bf4 d6 6.Bc4 Nc6 7.c3 e5 8.Bg3 Qe7 9.Ne2 Nf6 10.f3 Bd7 is assessed as better for black in Winning With The Dutch, but white's play is far from perfect here. Personally 3.e4! is the move I'd prefer, I like the variation of the staunton that it becomes.

2...h6 3.Bh4 g5 4.e4? Bg7 5.Qh5+ Kf8 6.Bc4 d5 7.ed Nf6 8.Qf3 gh is cited in the same book, and the author goes on to attack Taimanov for giving 3...g5? 4.e4! in a 1983 work, without giving even a slight analysis of the line you give. I have no time to check it now, but I will check it soon, I'm sure that black has defensive resources.

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spakus
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Dutch with 2. Bg5!?
12/29/03 at 15:40:28
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Hi, everyone I was just wondering how people here who play with or against the Dutch feel about the move 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5!?

It could easily catch black off guard and the attempt to win the bishop usually goes terribly arwy.  e.g. 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bh4 g5 4. e4 Bg7 (to prevent Qh5 mate) 5. Bg3 f4 6. Bxf4 gxf4 7. Qh5+ Kf8 8. Qf5+ Ke8 9. Be2 1-0 (the threat of Bh5 mate is deadly.  Black has several defensive resources but they all fail eventually) 

Also, if black tries 4. Nf6 then 5. e5 looks good for white.

and if black doesn't try to win the bishop and plays 2. g6 then white has a multitude of interesting ideas to follow up with.

So, do any of you Dutch players out have a plan for meeting 2. Bg5 and if so what?

Does anyone play this move with white or might think of trying it out? 

And any additional comments on this interesting opening would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: 12/29/03 at 17:03:43 by spakus »  
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