Thanks for your post, Fightingdragon! I'll try to give you some ideas of my perspectives on them:

1.) 3.g3 is not dangerous for Black. If White does not do the c4 try, he can equalize easily, and even after c4, if he castles short quickly he has no problems, as you mentioned. There is a game, I think it was Razuvayev - Skembris, where Black got a crushing position with normal moves from both sides.

2.) No advantage at all for White. Is White better (in rating), Black makes a draw, if White is worse, Black wins.

3.) Still not much practice with that, but after some analysis with some of my clubmates no fear so far.

4.) I like that one, too. Had a nice game in the Norwegian League with it.

5.) If you play 7...Nf6 and 8...e4, you get a nice position where White often does not know what to do. Also beat some players with it, even had GMs on the brink of a loss (in tournament games that is, blitz games are another story, in a positive way ).

6.) Yes, Bronznik and I made some improvements in this line. They can be seen in his second edition of his Chigorin Book.

7.) The "Four Knights" is even better for Black if White plays the "normal" system played in the former critical game Georgiev - Morozevich. Black can play 10...Bxf3! and obtain a very nice game. White must try something else here.

8.) I don't like this line at all for White. Black has promising play anywhere (I prefer ...Qh5).

9.) I concur, Black should be ok. And fun positions with many tactical tricks, too!

10.) Had a game against GM Nyback, which went quite well. Will post it later (if I get home)

11.) I agree.

For your thoughts on the line with 4.Nc3, cxd5 and Bf4 ... I played a game as Black against Epishin (who you mentioned) in Kiel last year. After 13.f4 I think I played 13...g6 and chose a setup ...Nc6-d8-e6 (BEFORE castling queenside), 0-0-0 and then followed up by ...g5 at some point. It is in my opinion quite promosing, since White hardly has any prospects on the queen side. In our game, Epishin transferred the Knight to e5, but that took too much time. I could generate counterplay with ...g5 (pressure on h2, g-file) but eventually lost after I got too cocky. I will try to post this game as well

And for the lines with 5.Bg5 or 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5, I have a nice game for you as well, which I played against Plüg in 2003. The secret is to trade the Bishop against the Knight at the right time and play ...f7-f5. The white bishop will be weak then and Black has good attacking chances on the queenside. I will post everything when I get home tomorrow...

hm, but now off to breakfast

Hello Christoph!

I played the Chigorin for four years, but lately had a little break from it.
This is what I think about the different (most important) variations:

1) 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3
Good for black if he plays the plan with the 0-0

2) 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bf4
Comfortable for black, even if it might be hard to create winning chances

3) 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e3
Perhaps the most uncomfortable variation for black from a practical point of view, but should be theoretical OK

4) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.ed5: Qd5: 4.Nf3
Nice for black

5) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.ed5: Qd5: 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bc3: 7.bc3:
Black has to know what he does (like most time in the Chigorin), but if he does much fun to play. I beat several FMs in this line almost effortlessly.

6) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.ed5: Qd5: 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bc3: 7.Bc3:
I think black has good compensation for the pawn (in the main variations), so it's also fun to play

7) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6
Some lines are tricky (and could even offer white better chances), but also OK for black

8) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cd5: Bf3: 5.dc6: Bc6:
This is great fun for black, he might even have the better chances

9) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cd5: Bf3: 5.gf3: Qd5: 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4
This can become very interesting and sharp with kings on different flanks, and I think theoretically black is OK

10) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.e3 e6
Can be unpleasant. Some time ago I lost a game not really knowing where I went wrong.

11) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3
Perhaps the critical line against the Chigorin?! White has some promising tries.

So that's for a "short" introduction of my thoughts on the Chigorin, let's be more concrete:


[Date "2005.01.16"]
[White "Pantaleev, Petar"]
[Black "FightingDragon"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D07"]
[WhiteElo "2300"]
[BlackElo "2169"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nc6 3. c4 Bg4 4. e3 e6 5. Nc3 Bb4 6. h3 Bxf3 7.
Qxf3 Nf6 8. cxd5 exd5 9. Bd3 O-O 10. O-O a6 11. a3 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Na5 13. a4 Re8 14. Qd1 Ne4 15. Qc2 g6
16. f3 Ng3 17. Re1 b6 18. Rb1 c5 19. Qf2 Qc7 20. dxc5 bxc5 21. e4 c4 22.
Bc2 dxe4 23. fxe4 Nh5 24. Be3 Nc6 25. Bb6 Qf4 26. a5 Ne5 27. Red1 Qxf2+  28. Kxf2 Nf4 29. Rd4 Ne6 30. Rd6 Nf4 31. Rd4 Ne6 32. Rd6 Nf4 33. Bd4 Ned3+
34. Kf3 g5 35. Ba4 Re6 36. Rc6 h5 37. Rb7 Ne1+ 38. Kf2 Rxe4 39. Rh6 Ned3+ 40.
Kf3 Rxd4 41. cxd4 Ne1+ 42. Ke4 Nexg2 43. Rf6 Rf8 44. Bd7 Nh4 45. d5 c3 46. Rc7
Rd8 47. Rfc6 Ne2 48. Rc8 Rxc8 49. Rxc8+ Kg7 50. d6 f5+ 51. Kd3 Nf4+ 52. Kxc3
Nhg6 53. Bxf5 1-0

This is the game I lost and don't really know what went wrong in the opening (the later stages were not played great by me!), but around move 16 I had the feeling of being considerably worse. The blockade of c4 and e4 didn't work, so perhaps I shouldn't have taken on c3 at all and played Bd6?
But in the sources I have (Bronznik's book and your excellent work on the Chigorin) black's main plan seems to be the blockade in this type of position.
One subtle point of my opponent's play was to let the bishop at c1 to capture with the pawn on c3 and follow up with a quick a4 and Ba3 and the plan to advance in the center with either f3-e4 or c4.
Hope the length of this post doesn't scare anybody off!

Quote:


there is no need to learn all these possibilities rowrulz, first of all 9...Qd6 is probably better than 9..ed. Why release the tension so early? and secondly 1d4 d5 2c4 Nc6 3Nf3 Bg4 4cd Bxf3 5gf Qxd5 6e3 e6 7Nc3 Qh5 is fine for black and easier to play then 6...e5 for instance,  8Bd2 0-0-0 9f4 Qxd1+ 10Rxd1 Nf6 or Nge7 and black will play for g5 break with a roughly equal ending (though admittedly it probably wouldnt be much fun to play against Kramnik  ) or if white avoids queenswap with 8 Be2 then 8...Nge7 9f4 Qh4 10Bf3 0-0-0 11Bd2 was Piza-Novak(1991), and now according to Keene/Jacobs Black should play 11...g5!? with complicated play.
I agree with you that 3Nc3 poses the most problems for black. what do people consider the best line for Black after 1d4 d5 2c4 Nc6 3Nc3 Nf6 4Nf3 dc 5e4 Bg4 6Be3... ? and of course in this line white can also play 5d5  Na5 6Qa4+ c6 7b4 b5 8Qxa5 Qxa5 9ba b4 10Nd1 cd 11 g3 which is a real pain to play against if white knows his stuff 

In addition I'd like to add the following line:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cd Qd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bc3 7.Bc3 ed 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.f3 Be6!? 10.Nd4 0-0-0 11.Qa4 Nge7 12.Nc6 Nc6 13.Bb5 Qc5! which is very reasonable for black.

In the 3.Nf3 lines after 9...ed 10.ed Nge7 the main problem for black is that white has so many 11th move possibilities and it's quite bewildering to attempt to learn them all.  At the moment I'm just trying to play the positions by 'feel' but against strong prepared opponents this could yet prove disastrous!

Personally though I feel 3.Nc3 is whites best try for an advantage.

Bonsai,

Is it possible for me to get my hands on this information?  I am most curious how FM Wisnewski suggests meeting the "anti-Chigorins".

Regards,

PoisonedPawn

I've mostly played against the Chigorin as white in the past (and have occasionally used it in blitz games myself) and I have yet to find a particularly promising way of playing against it. I feel that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 and 3.cxd5 put the most pressure on black, but I haven't seen or found anything terribly convincing.
I played those 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 Nf6 lines for a while, but they are really scarry for white (and possibly even offer black the better chances), if black knows his theory and attacking various ideas. I'd really like some new ideas for white as you may have guessed .

Recently the local Chigorin guru of my area FM Wisnewski has offered some material on the Chigorin online including some free sample bits. He seems to think that 3.cxd5 is most critical (but also says that black does okay in the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 Nf6 line). As to the 2.Nf3 lines, which several people have mentioned above, he states that black is absolutely fine in the 2...Nc6 3.Bf4 variations, but he thinks that black has to be a bit careful about 3.g3 - in particular he says that the ...Bg4, ...Qd7, ...0-0-0 lines are too dangerous here (and recommends some other ideas instead).

Somehow it seems to be that every book author who makes recommendations against the Chigorin doesn't look at some important lines carefully enough (in particular those played by Morozevich often seem to contain excellent ways to a good game for black - and they usually end up being subvariations).

I followed the following game live during the swedish team final, and was impressed by Chucky's handling of the bishop pair and rook ending. Where did black go wrong?

Ivanchuk,V (2716) - Brynell,S (2467) [D07]
TCh-SWE 2003-4 Goteborg SWE (11), 14.03.2004

1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nc6 3.c4 Bg4 4.cxd5 Bxf3 5.gxf3 Qxd5 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 9.bxc3 exd4 10.cxd4 Nge7 11.Bg2 0-0-0 12.Qb3 Qg5 13.Rg1 Qh5 14.Rb1 b6 15.f4 Rd6 16.Kf1 Rhd8 17.Qb5 Qxb5+ 18.Rxb5 g6 19.Rb2 f5 20.Rc2 Re6 21.h4 h5 22.Bf3 Nd5 23.Kg2 Nce7 24.Rgc1 c6 25.Bxd5 Rxd5 26.Bb4 Kd7 27.Bxe7 Kxe7 28.Rxc6 Rxc6 29.Rxc6 Ra5 30.Rxg6 Rxa2 31.Rg5 Kf6 32.Rxh5 b5 33.Rh7 b4 34.h5 a5 35.Rc7 b3 36.h6 Rc2 37.h7 Rxc7 38.h8Q+ Rg7+ 39.Kf3 a4 40.Qh6+ 1-0

I'll just add that Watson favorably reviewed Breutigam's Chigorin Chessbase CD (although I think that was in an earlier review) and really seemed to like Valeri Brozniks book on the Chigorin.