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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Critical lines of the Chigorin (Read 39622 times)
lnn2
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #47 - 10/08/05 at 02:08:47
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1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 looks slightly hairy for White (despite Dunnington, Bosch in NIC SOS, and Ruslan in Chesspub all assessing it favourably for White, and my computer also screaming 1-0). imho the surprise value of this line has long worn off, and it no longer makes sense for White to study so critical theory against the Chigorin, which is not a very common opening. 
 
I always thought, without much knowledge of theory, that 3. Nc3 is nice for White as 3... dxc4 4. d5 or 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. e4 Bg4 6. Be3 both look distinctly pleasant, and 3... Nf6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. e4 Nxc3 7. bxc3 e5 8. d5 looks like a worse version of the QGA with 3. e4 Nc6.  Am i just looking at the wrong lines after 3. Nc3, or are these supposed to be playable for Black nowadays?  Undecided
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #46 - 09/16/05 at 02:44:54
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The reason why I stopped playing this line is that I don't like the positions after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.d5.

Today, I prefer 3...Nf6, which more or less forces White to transpose into the Four Knights main lines (if he does not want to play things like 4.cxd5 or 4.Bg5 that is), which I assess preferable for black.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #45 - 09/15/05 at 19:59:44
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How do you evaluate this line?
For a pawnsac, White gets the clear bishoppair plus a strong center?
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cxd5 Bxf3 5.gxf3 Qxd5 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 9.bxc3 Qd6 10.Rb1 b6 11.f4 exf4 12.e4
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #44 - 08/05/05 at 13:17:13
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Yes. 5. - Nb8 is probably best. I have nine games with Nb8 in my database. One of them is the Wisnewski game mentioned previously:

[Event "14th Kieler Open"]
[Site "Kiel GER"]
[Date "2001.08.20"]
[EventDate "2001.08.18"]
[Round "5"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Bekker Jensen,Da"]
[Black "C Wisnewski"]
[ECO "D07"]
[WhiteElo "2284"]
[BlackElo "2387"]
[PlyCount "92"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. Nf3 a6 5. d5 Nb8 6. e4 b5 7. a4 b4 8. Na2
Nf6 9. Qd4 e6 10. Bxc4 exd5 11. exd5 Bb7 12. O-O Be7 13. Rd1 O-O 14. Bf4
Bd6 15. a5 Re8 16. Re1 Rxe1+ 17. Rxe1 Nbd7 18. Bd2 Qf8 19. Ng5 Bc5 20. Qh4
h6 21. Ne6 fxe6 22. dxe6 Kh8 23. exd7 Ne4 24. Be3 Bxe3 25. Rxe3 g5 26. Qh3
Qxf2+ 27. Kh1 Kg7 28. Qf3 Qxf3 29. gxf3 Nd6 30. Be6 Kf6 31. Bg4 Rd8 32.
Nxb4 h5 33. Be6 Bxf3+ 34. Kg1 Bb7 35. Nd3 Ne4 36. Bh3 g4 37. Bg2 Rxd7 38.
Bxe4 Bxe4 39. Nc5 Rd1+ 40. Kf2 Bf3 41. Nxa6 Rd2+ 42. Kf1 Rxb2 43. h3 Bg2+
44. Kg1 gxh3 45. Nc5 Rb1+ 46. Kh2 Kg5 0-1
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #43 - 08/05/05 at 09:02:39
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Bronznik devotes 6 pages to 4...a6 and clearly thinks it is playable.  However after 5.d5, he thinks 5...Na5 is doubtful due to 6.Qa4+.  He recommends the undeveloping 5...Nb8 instead.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #42 - 08/05/05 at 03:03:16
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Sasikiran used 4.- a6 against Eingorn in their FIDE Wch KO match in 2001... and won!:

[Event "FIDE WCh KO"]
[Site "Moscow RUS"]
[Date "2001.11.27"]
[Round "1.3"]
[White "Eingorn,V"]
[Black "Sasikiran,K"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2601"]
[BlackElo "2569"]
[EventDate "2001.11.27"]
[ECO "D07"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. Nf3 a6 5. d5 Na5 6. e4 e6 7. Bg5 f6 8.
Be3 b5 9. g3 Bb4 10. Bg2 Ne7 11. O-O O-O 12. Nd4 e5 13. Nc2 Bd6 14. Rb1 Nb7
15. b4 f5 16. exf5 Bxf5 17. Ne4 a5 18. a3 axb4 19. axb4 Ra2 20. Qd2 Bxe4
21. Bxe4 Nf5 22. Ra1 Nxe3 23. Qxe3 Rxa1 24. Rxa1 Be7 25. Bg2 Bf6 26. h4 g6
27. Ra7 Nd6 28. Qc5 Rf7 29. Bh3 Kg7 30. Be6 Re7 31. Qc6 Qe8 32. Rxc7 Rxc7
33. Qxc7+ Qe7 34. Qb8 Qf8 35. Qc7+ Qe7 36. Qc6 e4 37. Qc5 Be5 38. Nd4 Qf6
39. Nc6 h5 40. Nxe5 Qxe5 41. Qc7+ Kh6 42. Qb8 Nf7 43. Qxb5 e3 44. fxe3
Qxg3+ 45. Kf1 Qf3+ 46. Ke1 Qxe3+ 47. Kd1 Qb3+ 48. Ke1 Ne5 49. Qb8 Qe3+ 50.
Kf1 Qf3+ 51. Kg1 Qf6 52. Qc7 Nf3+ 53. Kf2 Nxh4+ 54. Ke2 Ng2 55. Qxc4 h4 56.
Qc1+ g5 57. Kd3 Nf4+ 58. Kc4 Nxe6 59. dxe6 Qxe6+ 60. Kb5 h3 61. Ka5 Qd5+
62. b5 h2 0-1
  
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JN
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #41 - 08/04/05 at 15:11:09
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FightingDragon wrote:

Quote:
7) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 
Some lines are tricky (and could even offer white better chances), but also OK for black 


Wisnewski replied:

Quote:
The "Four Knights" is even better for Black if White plays the "normal" system played in the former critical game Georgiev - Morozevich. Black can play 10...Bxf3! and obtain a very nice game


What is wrong with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.Nf3 a6!? Wisnewski has won with it at least once (Bekker-Jensen - Wisnewski [Kiel], 2001). There is a concise analysis of 4.- a6 in the Inside Chess article by Watson. He concludes that white must "look for an anti-4...a6 weapon".
« Last Edit: 08/05/05 at 08:38:18 by JN »  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #40 - 07/08/05 at 22:25:10
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Hello,

@ Fighting Dragon;
A. I'm glad you agree with one of my suggestions. On 7.Nxd5 Nge7!?, my original intent for this move was aimed toward opponents rated lower then myself.(Not ready to give up a draw in a slightly inferior endgame). In caveat to your analysis, I like to tack on 10.e3 0-0-0 11.Be2 Bxf3  12.gxf3 Rhe8 13.Rc1 f5 allowing White to sac an exchange for sharp, unclear position. Another is immediate 10.e3 Bxf3 11.gxf3 0-0-0 with Black looking at transposition to the above line. But, in this variation White doesn't need to play the obliging 12.Be2 as in the above line. IMO, the centralized heavy pieces with threat of f4 and Rxd4/Nxd4 gives Black definite compensation.

B. On following the main idea after 7.Bg3 Bxf3 8.gxf3 Nge7 9.e3 a6 10.Qc2(Epischin) !0.a3(Karpov) There are other unpublished, but viable 10th move for White(ie,10.Qb3,10.Bd3 and 10.Rg1).That is why I suggested 7.Bg3 Nge7. Why not let your opponent prepare for you instead of other way??

Have a nice day
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #39 - 07/08/05 at 14:35:01
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@memers:
Thx for your thoughts! I already thought that nobody would be interested anymore in this thread (I thought the Chigorin was more popular?!).
On 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.cd5: ed5: 6.Bf4 Bd6 7.Bg3 Nge7!? I can say that this variation has already been played and seems to be Ok for black. As Wisnewski's new plan with Nc6-d8-e6 before the 0-0-0 in the "main variaton" seems also ok for black, it is purely a matter of taste what to play.
7.Nd5: Nge7?! looks too optimistic to me. After 8.Bd6: Qd6: 9.Ne7: Qe7: 10.e3 white is just a healthy pawn up with no compensation for black in sight.
Instead 7. ... Bf3: 8.gf3: Nge7 is interesting (the main difference is that the d4-pawn hangs as soon as the knight at d5 moves). It seems that both 9.Ne7: Bb4+ 10.Bd2 Qe7: 11.e3 Nd4: 12.Qa4+ Nc6 13.Bb4: ... and
9.Bd6: Qd6: 10.Ne7: Nd4!! 11.Qa4+ (11.e3?? Qb4+! -+) Ke7: 12.0-0-0 Rhd8 13.e3 Qc6+ 14.Qc6: Nc6: when the bishop should be compensated by black's slightly better pawn structure.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #38 - 07/08/05 at 11:31:37
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Hello,

@Fighting Dragon 
(Your Quote:
"Now I want to add some (from my point of view) critical variations:   
What about 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.cd5: ed5: 6.Bf4? 
Is black really equal after 6. ... Bf3: 7.gf3: Bd6 8.Nd5: Bf4: 9.Nf4: Qd4: 10.Qd4: Nd4: 11.0-0-0 Rd8 12.e3 Ne6 13.Rd8:+ Kd8: 14.Ne6:+ fe6: 15.Bc4 ?   
At least white has rook+bishop against rook+knight without a good outpost for the knight so shouldn't white be better here? 
Also I am not convinced by 6. ... Bd6 7.Bg3 Bf3: 8.gf3: Nge7 9.e3 a6 10.Qc2 h5 11.0-0-0 h4 12.Bd6: Qd6: 13.f4 when white has a good grip on the center and should be at least a little better. Black seems to have no counterplay   
at that moment because he seems to have no pawn breaks. 
This variation is played by strong positional players like Epishin, Sokolov, Dreev or even Karpov! ")

A. Instead of playing 6.Bf4 Bd6 7.Nxd5 Bxf3 8.gxf3 Bxf4?! How about 8.gxf3 Nge7!? playing an endgame with better pawn formation??  Also, 7.Nxd5 Nge7!? sacrificing the pawn for quicker development?

B. Instead of 6.Bf4 Bd6 7.Bg3 Bxf3, Why not 7.Bg3 Nge7 with an idea of 0-0 and a6? This variation is uncharted and less analysed.

Have a nice day
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #37 - 07/02/05 at 17:55:07
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@CWisnewski
Thanks for the game!
I looked at it for some minutes and it seems that black has also good play after Ne5.
And for 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 a6!?, I think it is more accurate than 6. ... a6, which you played against Nyback (though play will usually transpose), because it cuts out then possibility of Bb5 by white (see my earlier post).
I will play some tournaments in the summer and I certainly will give the Chigorin another chance!
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #36 - 07/01/05 at 21:31:39
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@CWisnewski:

Thank you for the game!  I won't be able to analyse anything this weekend, because I'm finally going to actually play in a tournament (for the second time this year).  I will look at it  late next week.
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #35 - 07/01/05 at 05:06:36
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@FightingDragon, @SmyslovFan

I did some digging in order to answer your inquiry about a possible Nf3-e5 in the Nf3+Nc3+Bg5-variation.

To my own surprise, I only found one (!) game in my rather large database (which includes my dozens of tournament games and over 25.000 (!) internet games) which may be of some relevance. Due to my lack of time I have not been able to fully analyze it yet, but maybe you two want to have a look. All I can say is, that Black can be very satisfied in the position that arose in the game:

"monsternuts "(2096) - Wisnewski (2330) [D07]
ICC 5 0 Internet Chess Club, 18.04.2004

1.d2-d4 d7-d5 2.c2-c4 Nb8-c6 3.Ng1-f3 Bc8-g4 4.Nb1-c3 e7-e6 5.Bc1-g5 Bf8-e7 6.Bg5xe7 Ng8xe7 7.e2-e3 0-0 8.h2-h3 Bg4-h5 9.c4xd5 e6xd5 10.Bf1-e2 Qd8-d6 11.0-0 Nc6-d8 12.Nf3-e5 Bh5xe2 13.Nc3xe2 f7-f6 14.Ne5-d3 Nd8-e6 15.Ra1-c1 c7-c6 16.Ne2-f4 Ne6xf4 17.Nd3xf4 Se7-g6 18.Nf4-d3 f6-f5 19.Nd3-c5 Rf8-f7 20.Qd1-b3 Ra8-b8 21.Qb3-a3 a7-a6 22.Nc5-d3 Qd6xa3 23.b2xa3 f5-f4 24.a3-a4 Rb8-e8 25.e3xf4 Ng6xf4 26.Nd3xf4 Rf7xf4 27.Rf1-d1 Re8-e2 =+/ -/+
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #34 - 06/30/05 at 15:12:12
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Quote:
John Watson wrote a series of articles on the Chigorin for Inside Chess in 1998.  But I don't think you are going to need them.  They are listed in the bibliography of the new English edition of "The Chigorin Defense" by Bronznik.  The book is now available from both the TWIC and BCM websites.  You can view a sample PDF file at www.kaniaverlag.de.


Thanks!  Yes: it was Watson's three-part article in Inside Chess, which Bronznik does draw on.  That's a shame, since they clearly had some surprise value against Chigorin players...
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #33 - 06/30/05 at 13:06:38
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John Watson wrote a series of articles on the Chigorin for Inside Chess in 1998.  But I don't think you are going to need them.  They are listed in the bibliography of the new English edition of "The Chigorin Defense" by Bronznik.  The book is now available from both the TWIC and BCM websites.  You can view a sample PDF file at www.kaniaverlag.de.
  
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