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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Critical lines of the Chigorin (Read 39607 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #62 - 03/26/07 at 04:49:45
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If I get a vote, I vote for 3..dxc4 and, in particular, the main line that continues:
4.Nf3 Nf6  5.e4 Bg4  6.Be3 e6  7.Bxc4 Bb4  8.Qc2 0-0  9.Rd1.   

LeeRoth
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #61 - 03/25/07 at 17:28:41
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Do you have one specific variation in mind?
Against 3.Nc3 black can either reply 3. ... dc4: or 3. ... Nf6.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #60 - 03/21/07 at 18:09:39
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What about the move 3 Nc3?
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #59 - 03/17/07 at 18:32:17
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Thanks for you answer, Geof!

I think for the time being I'll stick with the old mainline 9. ... Qd6, but if I am really convinced it is bad for black I'll take a look at 6. ... e6!
  
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Geof_Strayer
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #58 - 03/16/07 at 03:32:53
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In this variation instead of 6...e5, the line 6...e6 seems to be holding up well, with the idea that the endgame after 7.Nc3 Qh5 8.f4 Qxd1+ 9.Kxd1 there is a somewhat unclear queenless middlegame that seems fine for Black, particularly in many lines where he plays ...Nf6, ...Nce7-f5, and ...h6, with the idea of ...g5!? I gave up this whole variation for White because I could not find any advantage against this set-up.

So if you can't find a solution in the 6...e5 variations (and to me the Saidy-Al Modiahki game looks pretty convincingly better for White, although perhaps Black should be able to defend), you might consider the 6...e6 lines instead.

         - Geof
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #57 - 03/08/07 at 02:11:07
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Time to revive this old thread again!  Smiley

Has anybody got the new book from Morozevich about the Chigorin?
I think it is excellent and from what I have read so far there are many interesting new ideas in it!

For example, Morozevich thinks that black's best after 
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cd5: Bf3: 5.gf3: Qd5: 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bc3: 9.bc3:
is the uncommon 9. ... Nf6!?
But there are two variations that are not convincing to me:
1. he gives Saidy-Al Modiahki, Las Vegas 2001 as +=, this is an unpleasant endgame for black:

[Event "National op"]
[Site "Las Vegas"]
[Date "2001.03.09"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Saidy,Anthony Fred"]
[Black "Al Modiahki,Mohamad"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D07"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cxd5 Bxf3 5.gxf3 Qxd5 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 
9.bxc3 Nf6 10.c4 Qd6 11.d5 Ne7 12.Rb1 b6 13.Bb4 Qd7 14.h4 0-0 15.Bh3 Qd8 16.d6 cxd6 
17.Bxd6 e4 18.Be5 Qxd1+ 19.Rxd1 exf3 20.Bxf6 gxf6 21.Rg1+ Kh8 22.Rg3 Ng6 23.Rxf3 Nxh4 24.Rxf6 Ng6 25.Rc6 Kg7 26.Rc7 a5 27.Rd6 Rab8 28.Be6 Kg8 29.Bd5 Ne5 30.Ke2 Rbc8 31.Rxc8 Rxc8 32.Rxb6 Rc7 33.Rb1 Kf8 34.f4 Nd7 35.Rb5 a4 36.Kd3 Ke7 37.Kd4 f6 38.Ra5 Nb6 39.Ra6 Nxd5 40.cxd5 Rb7 
41.Rxa4 h5 42.Ke4 h4 43.Ra8 Kd6 44.Rd8+ Kc5 45.Kf5 Rh7 46.Ke6 h3 47.Rc8+ Kb6 48.Rc1 h2 
49.Rh1 f5 50.Kxf5 Kc5 51.Ke6 Rh8 52.e4 Re8+ 53.Kf5 Rf8+ 54.Kg4 Kd4 55.Kf3 Ra8 56.e5 Ra3+ 
57.Kg4 Rxa2 58.d6 Ke4 59.d7 Rg2+ 60.Kh3 Rg8 61.e6  1-0

2.after 10.Bg2 0-0 11.0-0 Rad8 12.Qb3 b6 13.f4 e4 I think that the endgame after 14.Qd5: gives white a clear advantage. Perhaps black can improve earlier, but I'm not sure how.  Undecided
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #56 - 09/15/06 at 20:27:11
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I see the bunch of you are referring to a book by Cox.  I have recently gotten a FAR BETTER book than any book I've ever seen on the Chigorin Defense.  It's a book originally written in 2001 in German, but then it was updated, re-written, and had an extra 24 pages added to it, and is now in English.  It's a 336-page hardcover book by Valery Bronznik called (The Chigorin Defense).  You won't find it on Amazon.com, but USCF's online store has it.

It has 115 games with TONS of analysis.  If you are seriously looking to play the Chigorin (especially as Black, as those that only play the White side won't face it all that terribly often) should get this book by all means.

A must have for the Chigorin Player
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #55 - 09/14/06 at 08:06:42
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I have to admit that I don't particularly like the positions resulting from Cox' analysis for black. Usually in these battles of centre + bishop pair vs. shaky king position in the Chigorin black has  nice squares for his knights somewhere, eg f4 after doubling the f-pawns or c4 or d5. Here however, there is no obvious future for them.
So I would like to suggest the following line: 9...Qh5 10. Qb5 Qg6 11. Ne2 a6 12. Qb1 exf3 13. gxf3 Qh5 14. Bg2 Qh4 15. Ng3 Na5 16. Qb4 b6 17. e4 Nh5 18. Be3, giving the knights something to do. In the resulting unclear position several moves are possible, but I like 18...Bd7 with the idea of Bb5 most.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #54 - 09/13/06 at 16:50:08
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Cox briefly mentions 10...Qe7 11.Ne2 0-0 12.Ng3 exf3 13.gxf3 Re8 14.e4 where he says "..is also good for White, albeit double-edged as he has to be careful of his king."



Admittedly I can imagine how, as the game continues, black can bludgeon his way through the center if white plays inaccurately. But I also certainly see how this is good for White.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #53 - 09/13/06 at 16:34:09
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"Against this Cox suggests (after 8.f3 e4) 9.Qb3 Qd6 10.Qb1! Bf5 11.Ne2 Bg6 12.Qb3 0-0 13.Nf4"

I would like to add that Bronznik thinks 10...Bf5  is dubious, instead giving 10...Qe7 (Dautov) as interesting.
A move earlier black might take a look at 9...Qh5.
Does Cox say something about these possibilities?
  
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Klick
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #52 - 09/13/06 at 10:07:51
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John Cox recommends the line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7. bxc3 Nf6 8.f3


I am new to this, but white's bishop-pair and center appeal to me. The line hasn't been mentioned all that much in this thread. 

Quote:
Fightingdragon wrote: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.ed5: Qd5: 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bc3: 7.bc3:
Black has to know what he does (like most time in the Chigorin), but if he does much fun to play. I beat several FMs in this line almost effortlessly.
 

Fightingdragon didn't give any lines, so it is hard to continue from there.

Quote:
IM C.W. wrote:
If you play 7...Nf6 and 8...e4, you get a nice position where White often does not know what to do. Also beat some players with it, even had GMs on the brink of a loss (in tournament games that is, blitz games are another story, in a positive way Smiley).
 

Against this Cox suggests (after 8.f3 e4) 9.Qb3 Qd6 10.Qb1! Bf5 11.Ne2 Bg6 12.Qb3 0-0 13.Nf4



It would be interesting to have a closer look at these lines, both from white's and black's perspective. What do you think?
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #51 - 07/13/06 at 07:25:09
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Quote:
t's pretty much for that reason I started playing 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Bg4!?, which is similar and the knight doesn't necessarily have to go to c6.


While this may be true, a knight on c6 does have its merits, too. In this particular case, I would prevent Ne5 - Having said that, it is only natural that White should be able to obtain an advantage with 3.Ne5!
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #50 - 07/13/06 at 06:03:54
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Quote:
I have recently taken up the Chigorin and I am not convinced that 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 without c4 is any big deal for white.


or 1 Nf3 Nc6!? 2 d4 d5 Smiley

Quote:
b) IM Dunnington on his book on the Chigorin doesn't think that 3.Bf4 is any big deal


this is true — my score: P19 W5 D14 L0 — but those draws were incredibly boring

it's pretty much for that reason I started playing 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Bg4!?, which is similar and the knight doesn't necessarily have to go to c6.
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #49 - 10/08/05 at 09:11:04
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Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 looks slightly hairy for White (despite Dunnington, Bosch in NIC SOS, and Ruslan in Chesspub all assessing it favourably for White, and my computer also screaming 1-0). imho the surprise value of this line has long worn off, and it no longer makes sense for White to study so critical theory against the Chigorin, which is not a very common opening.

Dunnington covered it absolutely poorly, the critical line (8...Nf6!) is hidden in a sub-comment where is assessment is based on what the computer told him. The fact that Morozevich plays a move should have made him look a bit harder... If black plays correctly, I think he gets just the sort of positions black implies he would like to play by chosing the Chigorin.
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #48 - 10/08/05 at 06:48:26
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I would be interested in those lines of yours, especially those after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Be3.

In my opinion, those lines are hardly playable, if White seeks any advantage.
  
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