Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Critical lines of the Chigorin (Read 40174 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #62 - 03/26/07 at 04:49:45
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If I get a vote, I vote for 3..dxc4 and, in particular, the main line that continues:
4.Nf3 Nf6  5.e4 Bg4  6.Be3 e6  7.Bxc4 Bb4  8.Qc2 0-0  9.Rd1.   

LeeRoth
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #61 - 03/25/07 at 17:28:41
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Do you have one specific variation in mind?
Against 3.Nc3 black can either reply 3. ... dc4: or 3. ... Nf6.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #60 - 03/21/07 at 18:09:39
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What about the move 3 Nc3?
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #59 - 03/17/07 at 18:32:17
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Thanks for you answer, Geof!

I think for the time being I'll stick with the old mainline 9. ... Qd6, but if I am really convinced it is bad for black I'll take a look at 6. ... e6!
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #58 - 03/16/07 at 03:32:53
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In this variation instead of 6...e5, the line 6...e6 seems to be holding up well, with the idea that the endgame after 7.Nc3 Qh5 8.f4 Qxd1+ 9.Kxd1 there is a somewhat unclear queenless middlegame that seems fine for Black, particularly in many lines where he plays ...Nf6, ...Nce7-f5, and ...h6, with the idea of ...g5!? I gave up this whole variation for White because I could not find any advantage against this set-up.

So if you can't find a solution in the 6...e5 variations (and to me the Saidy-Al Modiahki game looks pretty convincingly better for White, although perhaps Black should be able to defend), you might consider the 6...e6 lines instead.

         - Geof
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #57 - 03/08/07 at 02:11:07
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Time to revive this old thread again!  Smiley

Has anybody got the new book from Morozevich about the Chigorin?
I think it is excellent and from what I have read so far there are many interesting new ideas in it!

For example, Morozevich thinks that black's best after 
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cd5: Bf3: 5.gf3: Qd5: 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bc3: 9.bc3:
is the uncommon 9. ... Nf6!?
But there are two variations that are not convincing to me:
1. he gives Saidy-Al Modiahki, Las Vegas 2001 as +=, this is an unpleasant endgame for black:

[Event "National op"]
[Site "Las Vegas"]
[Date "2001.03.09"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Saidy,Anthony Fred"]
[Black "Al Modiahki,Mohamad"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D07"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cxd5 Bxf3 5.gxf3 Qxd5 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 
9.bxc3 Nf6 10.c4 Qd6 11.d5 Ne7 12.Rb1 b6 13.Bb4 Qd7 14.h4 0-0 15.Bh3 Qd8 16.d6 cxd6 
17.Bxd6 e4 18.Be5 Qxd1+ 19.Rxd1 exf3 20.Bxf6 gxf6 21.Rg1+ Kh8 22.Rg3 Ng6 23.Rxf3 Nxh4 24.Rxf6 Ng6 25.Rc6 Kg7 26.Rc7 a5 27.Rd6 Rab8 28.Be6 Kg8 29.Bd5 Ne5 30.Ke2 Rbc8 31.Rxc8 Rxc8 32.Rxb6 Rc7 33.Rb1 Kf8 34.f4 Nd7 35.Rb5 a4 36.Kd3 Ke7 37.Kd4 f6 38.Ra5 Nb6 39.Ra6 Nxd5 40.cxd5 Rb7 
41.Rxa4 h5 42.Ke4 h4 43.Ra8 Kd6 44.Rd8+ Kc5 45.Kf5 Rh7 46.Ke6 h3 47.Rc8+ Kb6 48.Rc1 h2 
49.Rh1 f5 50.Kxf5 Kc5 51.Ke6 Rh8 52.e4 Re8+ 53.Kf5 Rf8+ 54.Kg4 Kd4 55.Kf3 Ra8 56.e5 Ra3+ 
57.Kg4 Rxa2 58.d6 Ke4 59.d7 Rg2+ 60.Kh3 Rg8 61.e6  1-0

2.after 10.Bg2 0-0 11.0-0 Rad8 12.Qb3 b6 13.f4 e4 I think that the endgame after 14.Qd5: gives white a clear advantage. Perhaps black can improve earlier, but I'm not sure how.  Undecided
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #56 - 09/15/06 at 20:27:11
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I see the bunch of you are referring to a book by Cox.  I have recently gotten a FAR BETTER book than any book I've ever seen on the Chigorin Defense.  It's a book originally written in 2001 in German, but then it was updated, re-written, and had an extra 24 pages added to it, and is now in English.  It's a 336-page hardcover book by Valery Bronznik called (The Chigorin Defense).  You won't find it on Amazon.com, but USCF's online store has it.

It has 115 games with TONS of analysis.  If you are seriously looking to play the Chigorin (especially as Black, as those that only play the White side won't face it all that terribly often) should get this book by all means.

A must have for the Chigorin Player
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #55 - 09/14/06 at 08:06:42
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I have to admit that I don't particularly like the positions resulting from Cox' analysis for black. Usually in these battles of centre + bishop pair vs. shaky king position in the Chigorin black has  nice squares for his knights somewhere, eg f4 after doubling the f-pawns or c4 or d5. Here however, there is no obvious future for them.
So I would like to suggest the following line: 9...Qh5 10. Qb5 Qg6 11. Ne2 a6 12. Qb1 exf3 13. gxf3 Qh5 14. Bg2 Qh4 15. Ng3 Na5 16. Qb4 b6 17. e4 Nh5 18. Be3, giving the knights something to do. In the resulting unclear position several moves are possible, but I like 18...Bd7 with the idea of Bb5 most.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #54 - 09/13/06 at 16:50:08
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Cox briefly mentions 10...Qe7 11.Ne2 0-0 12.Ng3 exf3 13.gxf3 Re8 14.e4 where he says "..is also good for White, albeit double-edged as he has to be careful of his king."



Admittedly I can imagine how, as the game continues, black can bludgeon his way through the center if white plays inaccurately. But I also certainly see how this is good for White.
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #53 - 09/13/06 at 16:34:09
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"Against this Cox suggests (after 8.f3 e4) 9.Qb3 Qd6 10.Qb1! Bf5 11.Ne2 Bg6 12.Qb3 0-0 13.Nf4"

I would like to add that Bronznik thinks 10...Bf5  is dubious, instead giving 10...Qe7 (Dautov) as interesting.
A move earlier black might take a look at 9...Qh5.
Does Cox say something about these possibilities?
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #52 - 09/13/06 at 10:07:51
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John Cox recommends the line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7. bxc3 Nf6 8.f3


I am new to this, but white's bishop-pair and center appeal to me. The line hasn't been mentioned all that much in this thread. 

Quote:
Fightingdragon wrote: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.ed5: Qd5: 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bc3: 7.bc3:
Black has to know what he does (like most time in the Chigorin), but if he does much fun to play. I beat several FMs in this line almost effortlessly.
 

Fightingdragon didn't give any lines, so it is hard to continue from there.

Quote:
IM C.W. wrote:
If you play 7...Nf6 and 8...e4, you get a nice position where White often does not know what to do. Also beat some players with it, even had GMs on the brink of a loss (in tournament games that is, blitz games are another story, in a positive way Smiley).
 

Against this Cox suggests (after 8.f3 e4) 9.Qb3 Qd6 10.Qb1! Bf5 11.Ne2 Bg6 12.Qb3 0-0 13.Nf4



It would be interesting to have a closer look at these lines, both from white's and black's perspective. What do you think?
  

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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #51 - 07/13/06 at 07:25:09
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Quote:
t's pretty much for that reason I started playing 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Bg4!?, which is similar and the knight doesn't necessarily have to go to c6.


While this may be true, a knight on c6 does have its merits, too. In this particular case, I would prevent Ne5 - Having said that, it is only natural that White should be able to obtain an advantage with 3.Ne5!
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #50 - 07/13/06 at 06:03:54
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Quote:
I have recently taken up the Chigorin and I am not convinced that 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 without c4 is any big deal for white.


or 1 Nf3 Nc6!? 2 d4 d5 Smiley

Quote:
b) IM Dunnington on his book on the Chigorin doesn't think that 3.Bf4 is any big deal


this is true — my score: P19 W5 D14 L0 — but those draws were incredibly boring

it's pretty much for that reason I started playing 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Bg4!?, which is similar and the knight doesn't necessarily have to go to c6.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #49 - 10/08/05 at 09:11:04
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Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 looks slightly hairy for White (despite Dunnington, Bosch in NIC SOS, and Ruslan in Chesspub all assessing it favourably for White, and my computer also screaming 1-0). imho the surprise value of this line has long worn off, and it no longer makes sense for White to study so critical theory against the Chigorin, which is not a very common opening.

Dunnington covered it absolutely poorly, the critical line (8...Nf6!) is hidden in a sub-comment where is assessment is based on what the computer told him. The fact that Morozevich plays a move should have made him look a bit harder... If black plays correctly, I think he gets just the sort of positions black implies he would like to play by chosing the Chigorin.
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #48 - 10/08/05 at 06:48:26
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I would be interested in those lines of yours, especially those after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Be3.

In my opinion, those lines are hardly playable, if White seeks any advantage.
  

"Chess you don't learn, chess you understand!" (V. Korchnoi)
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #47 - 10/08/05 at 02:08:47
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1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 looks slightly hairy for White (despite Dunnington, Bosch in NIC SOS, and Ruslan in Chesspub all assessing it favourably for White, and my computer also screaming 1-0). imho the surprise value of this line has long worn off, and it no longer makes sense for White to study so critical theory against the Chigorin, which is not a very common opening. 
 
I always thought, without much knowledge of theory, that 3. Nc3 is nice for White as 3... dxc4 4. d5 or 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. e4 Bg4 6. Be3 both look distinctly pleasant, and 3... Nf6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. e4 Nxc3 7. bxc3 e5 8. d5 looks like a worse version of the QGA with 3. e4 Nc6.  Am i just looking at the wrong lines after 3. Nc3, or are these supposed to be playable for Black nowadays?  Undecided
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #46 - 09/16/05 at 02:44:54
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The reason why I stopped playing this line is that I don't like the positions after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.d5.

Today, I prefer 3...Nf6, which more or less forces White to transpose into the Four Knights main lines (if he does not want to play things like 4.cxd5 or 4.Bg5 that is), which I assess preferable for black.
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #45 - 09/15/05 at 19:59:44
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How do you evaluate this line?
For a pawnsac, White gets the clear bishoppair plus a strong center?
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cxd5 Bxf3 5.gxf3 Qxd5 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 9.bxc3 Qd6 10.Rb1 b6 11.f4 exf4 12.e4
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #44 - 08/05/05 at 13:17:13
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Yes. 5. - Nb8 is probably best. I have nine games with Nb8 in my database. One of them is the Wisnewski game mentioned previously:

[Event "14th Kieler Open"]
[Site "Kiel GER"]
[Date "2001.08.20"]
[EventDate "2001.08.18"]
[Round "5"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Bekker Jensen,Da"]
[Black "C Wisnewski"]
[ECO "D07"]
[WhiteElo "2284"]
[BlackElo "2387"]
[PlyCount "92"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. Nf3 a6 5. d5 Nb8 6. e4 b5 7. a4 b4 8. Na2
Nf6 9. Qd4 e6 10. Bxc4 exd5 11. exd5 Bb7 12. O-O Be7 13. Rd1 O-O 14. Bf4
Bd6 15. a5 Re8 16. Re1 Rxe1+ 17. Rxe1 Nbd7 18. Bd2 Qf8 19. Ng5 Bc5 20. Qh4
h6 21. Ne6 fxe6 22. dxe6 Kh8 23. exd7 Ne4 24. Be3 Bxe3 25. Rxe3 g5 26. Qh3
Qxf2+ 27. Kh1 Kg7 28. Qf3 Qxf3 29. gxf3 Nd6 30. Be6 Kf6 31. Bg4 Rd8 32.
Nxb4 h5 33. Be6 Bxf3+ 34. Kg1 Bb7 35. Nd3 Ne4 36. Bh3 g4 37. Bg2 Rxd7 38.
Bxe4 Bxe4 39. Nc5 Rd1+ 40. Kf2 Bf3 41. Nxa6 Rd2+ 42. Kf1 Rxb2 43. h3 Bg2+
44. Kg1 gxh3 45. Nc5 Rb1+ 46. Kh2 Kg5 0-1
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #43 - 08/05/05 at 09:02:39
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Bronznik devotes 6 pages to 4...a6 and clearly thinks it is playable.  However after 5.d5, he thinks 5...Na5 is doubtful due to 6.Qa4+.  He recommends the undeveloping 5...Nb8 instead.
  

Every solution has, embedded within it, the next major problem.
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #42 - 08/05/05 at 03:03:16
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Sasikiran used 4.- a6 against Eingorn in their FIDE Wch KO match in 2001... and won!:

[Event "FIDE WCh KO"]
[Site "Moscow RUS"]
[Date "2001.11.27"]
[Round "1.3"]
[White "Eingorn,V"]
[Black "Sasikiran,K"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2601"]
[BlackElo "2569"]
[EventDate "2001.11.27"]
[ECO "D07"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. Nf3 a6 5. d5 Na5 6. e4 e6 7. Bg5 f6 8.
Be3 b5 9. g3 Bb4 10. Bg2 Ne7 11. O-O O-O 12. Nd4 e5 13. Nc2 Bd6 14. Rb1 Nb7
15. b4 f5 16. exf5 Bxf5 17. Ne4 a5 18. a3 axb4 19. axb4 Ra2 20. Qd2 Bxe4
21. Bxe4 Nf5 22. Ra1 Nxe3 23. Qxe3 Rxa1 24. Rxa1 Be7 25. Bg2 Bf6 26. h4 g6
27. Ra7 Nd6 28. Qc5 Rf7 29. Bh3 Kg7 30. Be6 Re7 31. Qc6 Qe8 32. Rxc7 Rxc7
33. Qxc7+ Qe7 34. Qb8 Qf8 35. Qc7+ Qe7 36. Qc6 e4 37. Qc5 Be5 38. Nd4 Qf6
39. Nc6 h5 40. Nxe5 Qxe5 41. Qc7+ Kh6 42. Qb8 Nf7 43. Qxb5 e3 44. fxe3
Qxg3+ 45. Kf1 Qf3+ 46. Ke1 Qxe3+ 47. Kd1 Qb3+ 48. Ke1 Ne5 49. Qb8 Qe3+ 50.
Kf1 Qf3+ 51. Kg1 Qf6 52. Qc7 Nf3+ 53. Kf2 Nxh4+ 54. Ke2 Ng2 55. Qxc4 h4 56.
Qc1+ g5 57. Kd3 Nf4+ 58. Kc4 Nxe6 59. dxe6 Qxe6+ 60. Kb5 h3 61. Ka5 Qd5+
62. b5 h2 0-1
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #41 - 08/04/05 at 15:11:09
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FightingDragon wrote:

Quote:
7) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 
Some lines are tricky (and could even offer white better chances), but also OK for black 


Wisnewski replied:

Quote:
The "Four Knights" is even better for Black if White plays the "normal" system played in the former critical game Georgiev - Morozevich. Black can play 10...Bxf3! and obtain a very nice game


What is wrong with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.Nf3 a6!? Wisnewski has won with it at least once (Bekker-Jensen - Wisnewski [Kiel], 2001). There is a concise analysis of 4.- a6 in the Inside Chess article by Watson. He concludes that white must "look for an anti-4...a6 weapon".
« Last Edit: 08/05/05 at 08:38:18 by JN »  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #40 - 07/08/05 at 22:25:10
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Hello,

@ Fighting Dragon;
A. I'm glad you agree with one of my suggestions. On 7.Nxd5 Nge7!?, my original intent for this move was aimed toward opponents rated lower then myself.(Not ready to give up a draw in a slightly inferior endgame). In caveat to your analysis, I like to tack on 10.e3 0-0-0 11.Be2 Bxf3  12.gxf3 Rhe8 13.Rc1 f5 allowing White to sac an exchange for sharp, unclear position. Another is immediate 10.e3 Bxf3 11.gxf3 0-0-0 with Black looking at transposition to the above line. But, in this variation White doesn't need to play the obliging 12.Be2 as in the above line. IMO, the centralized heavy pieces with threat of f4 and Rxd4/Nxd4 gives Black definite compensation.

B. On following the main idea after 7.Bg3 Bxf3 8.gxf3 Nge7 9.e3 a6 10.Qc2(Epischin) !0.a3(Karpov) There are other unpublished, but viable 10th move for White(ie,10.Qb3,10.Bd3 and 10.Rg1).That is why I suggested 7.Bg3 Nge7. Why not let your opponent prepare for you instead of other way??

Have a nice day
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #39 - 07/08/05 at 14:35:01
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@memers:
Thx for your thoughts! I already thought that nobody would be interested anymore in this thread (I thought the Chigorin was more popular?!).
On 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.cd5: ed5: 6.Bf4 Bd6 7.Bg3 Nge7!? I can say that this variation has already been played and seems to be Ok for black. As Wisnewski's new plan with Nc6-d8-e6 before the 0-0-0 in the "main variaton" seems also ok for black, it is purely a matter of taste what to play.
7.Nd5: Nge7?! looks too optimistic to me. After 8.Bd6: Qd6: 9.Ne7: Qe7: 10.e3 white is just a healthy pawn up with no compensation for black in sight.
Instead 7. ... Bf3: 8.gf3: Nge7 is interesting (the main difference is that the d4-pawn hangs as soon as the knight at d5 moves). It seems that both 9.Ne7: Bb4+ 10.Bd2 Qe7: 11.e3 Nd4: 12.Qa4+ Nc6 13.Bb4: ... and
9.Bd6: Qd6: 10.Ne7: Nd4!! 11.Qa4+ (11.e3?? Qb4+! -+) Ke7: 12.0-0-0 Rhd8 13.e3 Qc6+ 14.Qc6: Nc6: when the bishop should be compensated by black's slightly better pawn structure.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #38 - 07/08/05 at 11:31:37
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Hello,

@Fighting Dragon 
(Your Quote:
"Now I want to add some (from my point of view) critical variations:   
What about 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.cd5: ed5: 6.Bf4? 
Is black really equal after 6. ... Bf3: 7.gf3: Bd6 8.Nd5: Bf4: 9.Nf4: Qd4: 10.Qd4: Nd4: 11.0-0-0 Rd8 12.e3 Ne6 13.Rd8:+ Kd8: 14.Ne6:+ fe6: 15.Bc4 ?   
At least white has rook+bishop against rook+knight without a good outpost for the knight so shouldn't white be better here? 
Also I am not convinced by 6. ... Bd6 7.Bg3 Bf3: 8.gf3: Nge7 9.e3 a6 10.Qc2 h5 11.0-0-0 h4 12.Bd6: Qd6: 13.f4 when white has a good grip on the center and should be at least a little better. Black seems to have no counterplay   
at that moment because he seems to have no pawn breaks. 
This variation is played by strong positional players like Epishin, Sokolov, Dreev or even Karpov! ")

A. Instead of playing 6.Bf4 Bd6 7.Nxd5 Bxf3 8.gxf3 Bxf4?! How about 8.gxf3 Nge7!? playing an endgame with better pawn formation??  Also, 7.Nxd5 Nge7!? sacrificing the pawn for quicker development?

B. Instead of 6.Bf4 Bd6 7.Bg3 Bxf3, Why not 7.Bg3 Nge7 with an idea of 0-0 and a6? This variation is uncharted and less analysed.

Have a nice day
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #37 - 07/02/05 at 17:55:07
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@CWisnewski
Thanks for the game!
I looked at it for some minutes and it seems that black has also good play after Ne5.
And for 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 a6!?, I think it is more accurate than 6. ... a6, which you played against Nyback (though play will usually transpose), because it cuts out then possibility of Bb5 by white (see my earlier post).
I will play some tournaments in the summer and I certainly will give the Chigorin another chance!
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #36 - 07/01/05 at 21:31:39
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@CWisnewski:

Thank you for the game!  I won't be able to analyse anything this weekend, because I'm finally going to actually play in a tournament (for the second time this year).  I will look at it  late next week.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #35 - 07/01/05 at 05:06:36
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@FightingDragon, @SmyslovFan

I did some digging in order to answer your inquiry about a possible Nf3-e5 in the Nf3+Nc3+Bg5-variation.

To my own surprise, I only found one (!) game in my rather large database (which includes my dozens of tournament games and over 25.000 (!) internet games) which may be of some relevance. Due to my lack of time I have not been able to fully analyze it yet, but maybe you two want to have a look. All I can say is, that Black can be very satisfied in the position that arose in the game:

"monsternuts "(2096) - Wisnewski (2330) [D07]
ICC 5 0 Internet Chess Club, 18.04.2004

1.d2-d4 d7-d5 2.c2-c4 Nb8-c6 3.Ng1-f3 Bc8-g4 4.Nb1-c3 e7-e6 5.Bc1-g5 Bf8-e7 6.Bg5xe7 Ng8xe7 7.e2-e3 0-0 8.h2-h3 Bg4-h5 9.c4xd5 e6xd5 10.Bf1-e2 Qd8-d6 11.0-0 Nc6-d8 12.Nf3-e5 Bh5xe2 13.Nc3xe2 f7-f6 14.Ne5-d3 Nd8-e6 15.Ra1-c1 c7-c6 16.Ne2-f4 Ne6xf4 17.Nd3xf4 Se7-g6 18.Nf4-d3 f6-f5 19.Nd3-c5 Rf8-f7 20.Qd1-b3 Ra8-b8 21.Qb3-a3 a7-a6 22.Nc5-d3 Qd6xa3 23.b2xa3 f5-f4 24.a3-a4 Rb8-e8 25.e3xf4 Ng6xf4 26.Nd3xf4 Rf7xf4 27.Rf1-d1 Re8-e2 =+/ -/+
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #34 - 06/30/05 at 15:12:12
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Quote:
John Watson wrote a series of articles on the Chigorin for Inside Chess in 1998.  But I don't think you are going to need them.  They are listed in the bibliography of the new English edition of "The Chigorin Defense" by Bronznik.  The book is now available from both the TWIC and BCM websites.  You can view a sample PDF file at www.kaniaverlag.de.


Thanks!  Yes: it was Watson's three-part article in Inside Chess, which Bronznik does draw on.  That's a shame, since they clearly had some surprise value against Chigorin players...
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #33 - 06/30/05 at 13:06:38
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John Watson wrote a series of articles on the Chigorin for Inside Chess in 1998.  But I don't think you are going to need them.  They are listed in the bibliography of the new English edition of "The Chigorin Defense" by Bronznik.  The book is now available from both the TWIC and BCM websites.  You can view a sample PDF file at www.kaniaverlag.de.
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #32 - 06/30/05 at 11:22:10
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If I can find them, I will be happy to post them, but I don't know where they are at the moment--I have moved three or four times since then, and I left a number of old chess books and correspondence materials with my parents (some 3000 miles away!).  I would like to think I kept the records, but won't be able to get them for some time.  With any luck, I might also have the Inside Chess article there, too.  I can't find any mention of Inside Chess online, and wonder if it might be possible to track down old issues somewhere?  It was a great magazine...
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #31 - 06/30/05 at 09:45:10
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Does anyone else have the article?!
Meanwhile, no opinions on 5. ... a6!? ?

@HgMan: What about digging out your old correspondence games, or don't you have them anymore?
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #30 - 06/30/05 at 08:33:15
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Yasser Seirawan's old magazine Inside Chess (which I miss a good deal!) had an excellent article on the Chigorin (must have been about 1999) and some very strong and less common lines for White.  Alas, I no longer seem to have the magazine and I don't recall the line and its specifics, but I do remember enjoying good success with the line in correspondence chess...
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #29 - 06/29/05 at 00:15:03
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I will try to have a look at this later today!
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #28 - 06/28/05 at 20:15:34
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@Christoph:
Have you already looked at my suggestion 11.Ne5 in your game against Plüg? I would greatly appreciate an answer!  Grin



Errm, 

While you're looking at FightingDragon's 11.Ne5, I prefer it a move later (as I noted in a previous post), after 11...Ncd8.  Any comments?

  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #27 - 06/28/05 at 19:47:29
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Now I will reply to my own question  Roll Eyes:
After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 Nf6 6.h3 I think that 6. ... Bf3:?! doesn't give black equality, e.g. 7.Qf3: a6!? 8.cd5:!? ed5: 9.Bd3 Bd6 10.Bd2 Ne7 11.e4! and white has the initiative because of his more actively placed pieces. In the line after 6. ... Bh5 perhaps I overestimated 7.g4 Bg6 8.Nh4 (this is necessary now, black threatens Nb4) Be4! 9.Ne4: Ne4: 10.Nf3 Bb4 with some initiative for black because of his better development.
Instead of taking on e4 white should better play 9.f3 Ng8!? 10.Ng2 Bg6 11.cd5: ed5: 12.h4 h5 13.Nf4 hg4: 14.Ng6: fg6: 15.Bd3 Qd6 with unclear play where black shouldn't be worse. 
Then I looked it up in Bronznik's excellent book, who only gave 7.cd5: ed5: 8.Bb5 and follows up with a variation where black has inadequate compensation for a sacrificed pawn.
So now I thought about 5. ... a6!?
At first glance I can see no disadvantage compared to 5. ... Nf6, and the advantage is that it rules out Bb5. Now on h3 Bh5 white doesn't even have h4 for the knight. White develops slowly, so why shouldn't black also take some time to stop an optimal setup for white?!
So what do you think of this idea?

@Christoph:
Have you already looked at my suggestion 11.Ne5 in your game against Plüg? I would greatly appreciate an answer!  Grin
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #26 - 06/24/05 at 18:06:15
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So if I understand you correctly you think that the standard plan with Bb4 is no good?!
Your concept seems interesting, but I didn't really understand Nyback's plan: did he play Bd2 and Qb3 only with the intention to castle long (which could become quite dangerous for his king)?
I suggest another move order for white:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 Nf6 6.h3!
Now black has to lay his cards on the table:
on 6. ... Bh5 I have the feeling that white is better after 7.g4! 
Bg6 8.Nh4 with Ng6: and Bg2 to follow, see Reich-Wutz, 2005
on 6. ... Bf3: white should continue as in my game:
7.Qf3: Bb4 8.cd5: ed5: 9.Bd3 (another point of white's play is to leave the bishop on c1 as he will recapture on c3 with 
the pawn anyway to strengthen his centre, the bishop may have possibilities at a3) 0-0 10.0-0 a6 11.a3! and also here white should be better.
Perhaps black can try 7. ... a6, though it is not really clear to me how he should continue. What do you think?
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #25 - 06/24/05 at 11:10:08
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@FightingDragon 

Since I was able to find one of my games online, I can at least try to answer one of your questions immediately, namely "what went wrong" in your game.

I found over time that the whole idea of playing on the light squares c4 and e4 is not feasible if the dark-squared bishop of White "stayed at home" (so did not develop to f4 before playing e2-e3), because White has less problems to protect the (temporarily) weak pawn on e3 when playing f2-f3. I do have to say that I probably wouldn't have traded on f3 here, since it is additionally difficult then to play on the light squares (would have traded the Bg4 to the light-squared bishop, which should always be possible).

Nevertheless, due to this "problematic" I designed a "new" approach, which you may examine in my game I played against GM Nyback in my last Bundesliga season. I'll try to annotate at least the most important and critical situations:

GM Nyback (2554) - Wisnewski (2392)
German Bundesliga 2004/05

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 Nf6 6.Bd2 a6!?

As I already pointed out above, I don't like to play the "traditional" way by exchanging the Bf8 against the Nc3. Instead, 6...a6!? is a useful move for numerous purposes:

a.) If I want to play ...Bd6, I make sure not to be pestered by the Nc3.

b.) If I change my mind and (for whatever reason) want to go back to the standard plan, ...a6 can come in handy for a possible ...b7-b5 advance (In order to strengthen my control over c4).

7.Qb3 Bxf3

This trade is feasible, since I think black's pawn structure is favorable.

8.gxf3 Be7

Unfortunately I cannot play 8...Bd6? here, because after 9.c5 Be7 10.Qxb7 the queen is no longer caught after 10...Na5 (b4 is available now).

9.cxd5 exd5 10.Rg1 0-0 11.0-0-0 b5 12.Ne2

In this position, I lost the thread and play the inaccurate 12...Rab8?!

Instead, after 12...Bd6! (in order to prevent 13.Nf4), I think Black has good attacking prospects on the queen side, while it will take some time for White to finish his development. I'd take this position any day.

I hope I could shed some light - and if there are questions, please ask Smiley
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #24 - 06/24/05 at 02:35:59
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@Fightingdragon

I will get home tonight and check with my sources and analyses, so I hope to have something to answer your questions over the weekend

@Smyslov_Fan et al.

I translated the annotations of my game against Plug, so people who can't speak german can follow it as well. It can be found in post #20 Smiley
« Last Edit: 06/24/05 at 10:43:39 by IM Christoph Wisnewski »  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #23 - 06/23/05 at 21:41:26
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Hi, 

As you can probably tell, I'm new to this site.  I am amazed at the wonderful, cutting-edge analysis you are giving us, FM/IM Wisnewski and FightingDragon.  I've been following the conversation on the Chigorin because as an ardent defender of the White side, I've never been particularly impressed with Karpov's analyses of White's chances.  The great positional player's games seem to lack punch against this opening.   

Although I don't speak or read German, I appreciate the comments you gave to Plug-Wisnewski.  It seems to me that the critical position is after 11....Nc-d8!(!?).  White may have something more inspiring than simply 12.Rac1.

The maneuver Rac1, Na4-c5 seems slow and almost misses the point of Black's play.  Do you have any other recommendations for White beyond 12.Nb5 which you convincingly show is also weak?  For instance, 12.Ne5 seems more direct.  After the light squared Bishops are traded, perhaps white could dream of an eventual Qf3, Rab1, b4 and a minority attack.  What do you think?

BTW. The English language should adopt cool words like "lahmgelegt".  Apart from the meaning (which I guessed at from the context), it just sounds cool! 8)
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #22 - 06/23/05 at 18:33:02
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Hi!
Nice to receive so much feedback!  Smiley
In some points you have convinced me, in others not (but I hope you will do in the end).
Do you have an idea what went wrong in my game (in the first 15 moves)?
Your plan against Epishin looks nice, just didn't look at it close enough.  Embarrassed
About the game against Plüg: it went rather nice for you but what if white decides to exchange his bad "good" bishop with 11.Ne5 (as I gave before)?
By the way, very nice game against Krasenkov!
It is always funny that the Chigorin is frowned upon by many players but in practise success most time proved me right (After I beat an FM in a rapid game in the line with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cd5: Qd5: 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bc3: 
7.bc3: Nf6 8.c4 Qd6 9.d5 Ne7 as he built up a strong center which I cracked by playing c7-c6 and b7-b5 he told me: "In my youth we learned to be positional players, this just can't work!"  Roll Eyes).
I looked again at Dizdarevic-Fercec (which I posted in the 2.Nf3 thread) and am not so impressed anymore. With a little more accurate defense white could have stopped black's attack and could have won the game.
Do you have any concrete thoughts on the lines with 3.e3 I gave (like Grant-Hector f.e.)?
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #21 - 06/23/05 at 09:19:21
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Here is a game for you I played last season in German Bundesliga. It features the (quite popular) variation with 

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.bxc3 Nf6 8.f3 e4.

You'll note that White was completely crushed by move 20. I don't remember my exact analysis now (will look it up later), but either 20...Rb8 or 20...Ba6 (instead of 20...Qh5?) leads to an endgame where Black is simply an a-pawn up (with 3 vs 3 on the kingside) by force.

GM Gabriel,C (2556) - Wisnewski,C (2392) [D07]
German Bundesliga (11), 13.02.2005

1.d2-d4 d7-d5 2.c2-c4 Sb8-c6 3.c4xd5 Dd8xd5 4.e2-e3 e7-e5 5.Sb1-c3 Lf8-b4 6.Lc1-d2 Lb4xc3 7.b2xc3 Sg8-f6 8.c3-c4 Dd5-d6 9.d4-d5 Sc6-e7 10.f2-f3 e5-e4 11.Dd1-b3 a7-a5 12.Sg1-e2 c7-c6 13.Se2-c3 e4xf3 14.g2xf3 0-0 15.e3-e4 b7-b5 16.d5xc6 b5xc4 17.Lf1xc4 Se7xc6 18.Sc3-b5 Dd6-e7 19.Db3-a3 De7-e5 20.Ta1-c1 De5-h5 21.Da3-e3 Lc8-h3 22.Th1-g1 Sc6-e5 23.Lc4-e2 Tf8-d8 24.De3-f4 Se5-g6 25.Df4-g5 h7-h6 26.Dg5-g3 Lh3-d7 27.Sb5-d6 Ld7-e6 28.a2-a4 Dh5-h4 29.Dg3xh4 Sg6xh4 30.Sd6-b7 Td8-b8 31.Sb7-c5 Kg8-f8 32.Ld2-f4 Tb8-c8 33.Lf4-d6+ Kf8-g8 34.Ld6-e7 Sf6-d7 35.Ke1-f2 Sd7xc5 36.Tc1xc5 Sh4-g6 37.Le7-d6 ½-½

I also posted some other games in the thread "Chigorin players vs. 2.Nf3" (http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=1d4d5;action=display;num=10522427...) ... Feel free to look there as well (if not already done so)
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #20 - 06/20/05 at 14:33:48
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This game is for the players who are afraid that the positions after 1.d2-d4 d7-d5 2.Ng1-f3 Nb8-c6 3.c2-c4 Bc8-g4 4.Nb1-c3 e7-e6 5.c4xd5 e6xd5 6.Bc1-g5 get dry too quickly.

As I said earlier, an interesting idea is to trade the light-squared bishop against the Knight at a right time and then proceed to play ...f7-f5 with attacking prospects on the king side. White will try to start his typical queen side minority attack, but I think Black's chances are better. The black pawn structure sentences the white bishop to a rather measely life:

Plüg,A - Wisnewski,C [D07]
Bargteheider Sparkassen-Cup 2003 Bargteheide, 2003

1.d2-d4 d7-d5 2.Ng1-f3 Nb8-c6 3.c2-c4 Bc8-g4 4.Nb1-c3 e7-e6 5.c4xd5 e6xd5 6.Bc1-g5 Bf8-e7 7.Bg5xe7 Ng8xe7 8.e2-e3 0-0 9.Bf1-e2 

Takes care of the often annoying pin of the Knight f3. [After [b]9.Bf1-d3[/b] Black cannot play [b]9...Qd8-d6?[/b] to achieve a similar setup like in the actual game. ([b]9...f7-f5!?[/b] seems more typical, though Black has to take care not to let White occupy and secure the outpost e5 with his Knight.)  [b]10.Bd3xh7+! Kg8xh7 11.Nf3-g5+ Kh7-g6 12.Qd1xg4 f7-f5 13.Qg4-f4 Qd6xf4 14.e3xf4 Nc6xd4 15.0-0-0±[/b] with a clearly better position for White] 

9...Qd8-d6 

Bringing the queen into an active position. From here, she can be transferred to the queen side as well as to the king side. 

10.h2-h3 Bg4-h5 

[[b]10...Bg4xf3?![/b] should be looked at, but one can soon reach the conclusion that Black cannot regroup his pieces like in the actual game. [b]11.Be2xf3 f7-f5 12.Qd1-b3 Ra8-d8=[/b] and although the position is equal, the route via d8 for the Nc6 is blocked.] 

11.0-0 Nc6-d8! 

The Knight is being transferred to e6, where he accomplishes many tasks; on the one hand he protects c5, (a critical point, which, in this kind of structure, is often occupied by white pieces) - and on the other hand, he supports a possible advance ...f7-f5-f4. 

12.Ta1-c1 

[[b]12.Nc3-b5?![/b] has the idea to prevent Black from consolidating his queen side, but it simply fails. [b]12...Qd6-b6 13.a2-a4 (13.Nf3-e5 Bh5xe2 14.Qd1xe2 c7-c6 15.Nb5-c3 Qb6-c7=[/b] and Black is comfortable.) [b]13...Bh5xf3 14.Be2xf3 c7-c6 15.Nb5-c3 (15.Nb5-d6? Qb6-c7-+) 15...Qb6xb2[/b] and Black is a pawn up.] 

12...c7-c6 13.Nc3-a4 Nd8-e6 14.Na4-c5 Ne6xc5 15.Rc1xc5 

White plays his classical scheme. He is about to begin his typical minority attack (b2-b4-b5).

15...Bh5xf3! 

Black both eliminates the Knight and lays ground for a large offense on the king side. The game will show that White remains with a "bad" bishop, while the black knight is powerful. 

16.Be2xf3 f7-f5 

Black's play on the king side is just faster than White's play on the queen side. 

17.g2-g3 Rf8-f6 

Protects c6 and also shows new options (doubling of rooks, maneuvers on 6th rank). 

18.Qd1-b3 Ra8-b8 19.Rc5-c3 a7-a6! 

A preventative move. Obviously Black does not want to trade queens after 20.Qa3 and therefore "protects" a7. 

20.Qb3-a3 Qd6-d7 21.Bf3-g2 Ne7-c8 22.Qa3-a5 Nc8-d6 

The Knight has reached its destination. From here, not only he helps to secure Black's queenside (Protection of b7, Control over c4 and b5), but also has offensive potential (possible outpost e4). 

23.Rc3-c2 Kg8-h8 24.h3-h4 Rb8-g8 25.a2-a4 g7-g5 26.h4xg5 Rg8xg5 27.Bg2-f3 Nd6-e4 

Even as Black's position is clearly better, it is not easy to find the right continuation. [I did not like [b]27...f5-f4?![/b] because of [b]28.e3xf4 Rf6xf4 29.Qa5-d2 Qd7-f7 30.Bf3-g2[/b] as the white pawn shield is still intact, while White may be able to create counterplay.; 
[b]27...h7-h5!?[/b] on the other hand would have been interesting. [b]28...h4[/b] is threatening, so White is forced to react with [b]28.Kg1-g2[/b]. But then it seems the idea [b]28...f5-f4[/b] works, as White can't retreat his bishop to g2 this time. There can follow [b]29.e3xf4 Rf6xf4 30.Qa5-d2 Qd7-f5! -/+[/b] with a strong attack.] 

28.Kg1-g2 Qd7-d6 29.Bf3xe4 f5xe4 

The white queen side is paralyzed and Black can do on the king side whatever he wants. It seems though, that White can just hold his position.

30.Rf1-h1 Rf6-f3 31.Rh1-h3 Rg5-f5 32.Qa5-e1 Rf5-f7 33.Rh3-h4 Qd6-f6 34.Qe1-d2 Rf7-g7 35.Rh4-f4 Rf3xf4 36.e3xf4 h7-h5 37.Qd2-e3 a6-a5 38.Rc2-c1 Rg7-h7 39.b2-b3 Kh8-g7 40.f2-f3 h5-h4 41.f3xe4 h4xg3 42.e4xd5 Rh7-h2+ 43.Kg2-g1 Qf6-h4 

1/2 - 1/2
« Last Edit: 06/24/05 at 10:41:42 by IM Christoph Wisnewski »  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #19 - 06/20/05 at 14:27:11
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Here is my game against Epishin. During my preparations for this line, I examined the Bronznik book, who stops at 11...h4, and who evaluates the position as "unclear", if I recall correctly.

I checked the games I had available in my database, but Black had difficulties to prove sufficient counterplay. Mainly, because the Nc6 was often ill-placed and had nothing to do. After Black castling long, the Nc6 could not get into play fast enough.

Therefore, I deviced a new setup, which I tried in a few games on the internet. It involved placing the Nc6 via d8 on e6 BEFORE castling, so that it could do more (Possible pawn breaks ...g5 and ...c5). 

In my game with Epishin, he tried to place the Knight on e5, but I think that I got sufficient play. I have not analysed the position too deeply yet, but I think that Black must be comfortable after 18...g5.

Here is the actual game:

Epischin,W (2635) - Wisnewski,C (2410) [D07]
Kiel op 2004 Kiel (5), 26.07.2004

1.d2-d4 d7-d5 2.c2-c4 Sb8-c6 3.Sg1-f3 Lc8-g4 4.Sb1-c3 e7-e6 5.c4xd5 e6xd5 6.Lc1-f4 Lf8-d6 7.Lf4-g3 Lg4xf3 8.g2xf3 Sg8-e7 9.e2-e3 a7-a6 10.Dd1-c2 h7-h5 11.0-0-0 h5-h4 12.Lg3xd6 Dd8xd6 13.f3-f4 g7-g6 14.Kc1-b1 Sc6-d8 15.Lf1-h3 f7-f5 16.Sc3-e2 Sd8-e6 17.Se2-c1 0-0-0 18.Sc1-d3 g6-g5 19.f4xg5 Se6xg5 20.Lh3-f1 Td8-f8 21.Td1-c1 c7-c6 22.a2-a3 Th8-g8 23.Kb1-a2 Tf8-f6 24.Dc2-a4 Sg5-e4 25.Tc1-c2 Dd6-c7 26.f2-f3 Se4-d6 27.Sd3-e5 f5-f4 28.Lf1-h3+ Kc8-d8 29.Se5-d7 Tf6-g6 30.e3xf4 Se7-f5 31.Sd7-e5 Tg6-f6 32.Se5xc6+ b7xc6 33.Tc2xc6 Dc7-e7 34.Da4-a5+ Kd8-e8 35.Th1-e1 Sf5-e3 36.Tc6-c7 1-0
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #18 - 06/20/05 at 14:17:15
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Ok, I have been at home now and can post some games. I have not had much time, so I could not gather all games I promised to post. I will get the rest when I am at home again (which will be tomorrow).

If any of the games are annotated, the annotations are in german. They should (hopefully) be easy enough to understand, but I shall translate them as soon as I have time...
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #17 - 06/19/05 at 04:09:32
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Thanks for your post, Fightingdragon! I'll try to give you some ideas of my perspectives on them:

1.) 3.g3 is not dangerous for Black. If White does not do the c4 try, he can equalize easily, and even after c4, if he castles short quickly he has no problems, as you mentioned. There is a game, I think it was Razuvayev - Skembris, where Black got a crushing position with normal moves from both sides.

2.) No advantage at all for White. Is White better (in rating), Black makes a draw, if White is worse, Black wins.

3.) Still not much practice with that, but after some analysis with some of my clubmates no fear so far.

4.) I like that one, too. Had a nice game in the Norwegian League with it.

5.) If you play 7...Nf6 and 8...e4, you get a nice position where White often does not know what to do. Also beat some players with it, even had GMs on the brink of a loss (in tournament games that is, blitz games are another story, in a positive way Smiley).

6.) Yes, Bronznik and I made some improvements in this line. They can be seen in his second edition of his Chigorin Book.

7.) The "Four Knights" is even better for Black if White plays the "normal" system played in the former critical game Georgiev - Morozevich. Black can play 10...Bxf3! and obtain a very nice game. White must try something else here.

8.) I don't like this line at all for White. Black has promising play anywhere (I prefer ...Qh5).

9.) I concur, Black should be ok. And fun positions with many tactical tricks, too!

10.) Had a game against GM Nyback, which went quite well. Will post it later (if I get home)

11.) I agree.

For your thoughts on the line with 4.Nc3, cxd5 and Bf4 ... I played a game as Black against Epishin (who you mentioned) in Kiel last year. After 13.f4 I think I played 13...g6 and chose a setup ...Nc6-d8-e6 (BEFORE castling queenside), 0-0-0 and then followed up by ...g5 at some point. It is in my opinion quite promosing, since White hardly has any prospects on the queen side. In our game, Epishin transferred the Knight to e5, but that took too much time. I could generate counterplay with ...g5 (pressure on h2, g-file) but eventually lost after I got too cocky. I will try to post this game as well Smiley

And for the lines with 5.Bg5 or 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5, I have a nice game for you as well, which I played against Plüg in 2003. The secret is to trade the Bishop against the Knight at the right time and play ...f7-f5. The white bishop will be weak then and Black has good attacking chances on the queenside. I will post everything when I get home tomorrow...

hm, but now off to breakfast Smiley
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #16 - 06/18/05 at 18:50:14
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Now I want to add some (from my point of view) critical variations:

What about 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.cd5: ed5: 6.Bf4?
Is black really equal after 6. ... Bf3: 7.gf3: Bd6 8.Nd5: Bf4: 9.Nf4: Qd4: 10.Qd4: Nd4: 11.0-0-0 Rd8 12.e3 Ne6 13.Rd8:+ Kd8: 14.Ne6:+ fe6: 15.Bc4 ? 
At least white has rook+bishop against rook+knight without a good outpost for the knight so shouldn't white be better here?
Also I am not convinced by 6. ... Bd6 7.Bg3 Bf3: 8.gf3: Nge7 9.e3 a6 10.Qc2 h5 11.0-0-0 h4 12.Bd6: Qd6: 13.f4 when white has a good grip on the center and should be at least a little better. Black seems to have no counterplay 
at that moment because he seems to have no pawn breaks.
This variation is played by strong positional players like Epishin, Sokolov, Dreev or even Karpov!

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 or 5.cd5: ed5: 6.Bg5. What do you think black should play here?
I don't know if f6 is trustworthy, and Be7 seems to be a bit dry.
For example 5.ed5: cd5: 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Be7: Nge7: 8.e3 0-0 9.Be2 Qd6 10.0-0 Nd8 11.Ne5!? Be2: 12.Qe2: white's position seems to be easier to play. He will carry on with the minority attack while black's pieces don't harmonize at that point.


  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #15 - 06/18/05 at 17:37:28
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Hello Christoph!

I played the Chigorin for four years, but lately had a little break from it.
This is what I think about the different (most important) variations:

1) 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3
Good for black if he plays the plan with the 0-0

2) 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bf4
Comfortable for black, even if it might be hard to create winning chances

3) 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e3
Perhaps the most uncomfortable variation for black from a practical point of view, but should be theoretical OK

4) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.ed5: Qd5: 4.Nf3
Nice for black

5) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.ed5: Qd5: 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bc3: 7.bc3:
Black has to know what he does (like most time in the Chigorin), but if he does much fun to play. I beat several FMs in this line almost effortlessly.

6) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.ed5: Qd5: 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bc3: 7.Bc3:
I think black has good compensation for the pawn (in the main variations), so it's also fun to play

7) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6
Some lines are tricky (and could even offer white better chances), but also OK for black

8) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cd5: Bf3: 5.dc6: Bc6:
This is great fun for black, he might even have the better chances

9) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cd5: Bf3: 5.gf3: Qd5: 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4
This can become very interesting and sharp with kings on different flanks, and I think theoretically black is OK

10) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.e3 e6
Can be unpleasant. Some time ago I lost a game not really knowing where I went wrong.

11) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3
Perhaps the critical line against the Chigorin?! White has some promising tries.

So that's for a "short" introduction of my thoughts on the Chigorin, let's be more concrete:


[Date "2005.01.16"]
[White "Pantaleev, Petar"]
[Black "FightingDragon"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D07"]
[WhiteElo "2300"]
[BlackElo "2169"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nc6 3. c4 Bg4 4. e3 e6 5. Nc3 Bb4 6. h3 Bxf3 7.
Qxf3 Nf6 8. cxd5 exd5 9. Bd3 O-O 10. O-O a6 11. a3 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Na5 13. a4 Re8 14. Qd1 Ne4 15. Qc2 g6
16. f3 Ng3 17. Re1 b6 18. Rb1 c5 19. Qf2 Qc7 20. dxc5 bxc5 21. e4 c4 22.
Bc2 dxe4 23. fxe4 Nh5 24. Be3 Nc6 25. Bb6 Qf4 26. a5 Ne5 27. Red1 Qxf2+  28. Kxf2 Nf4 29. Rd4 Ne6 30. Rd6 Nf4 31. Rd4 Ne6 32. Rd6 Nf4 33. Bd4 Ned3+
34. Kf3 g5 35. Ba4 Re6 36. Rc6 h5 37. Rb7 Ne1+ 38. Kf2 Rxe4 39. Rh6 Ned3+ 40.
Kf3 Rxd4 41. cxd4 Ne1+ 42. Ke4 Nexg2 43. Rf6 Rf8 44. Bd7 Nh4 45. d5 c3 46. Rc7
Rd8 47. Rfc6 Ne2 48. Rc8 Rxc8 49. Rxc8+ Kg7 50. d6 f5+ 51. Kd3 Nf4+ 52. Kxc3
Nhg6 53. Bxf5 1-0

This is the game I lost and don't really know what went wrong in the opening (the later stages were not played great by me!), but around move 16 I had the feeling of being considerably worse. The blockade of c4 and e4 didn't work, so perhaps I shouldn't have taken on c3 at all and played Bd6?
But in the sources I have (Bronznik's book and your excellent work on the Chigorin) black's main plan seems to be the blockade in this type of position.
One subtle point of my opponent's play was to let the bishop at c1 to capture with the pawn on c3 and follow up with a quick a4 and Ba3 and the plan to advance in the center with either f3-e4 or c4.
Hope the length of this post doesn't scare anybody off!
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #14 - 06/15/05 at 04:35:14
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@PoisenedPawn

If you are still following this thread (and interestend in asking any questions about this Chigorin), feel free to ask any questions, and I will try to answer them.

This, of course, is for all others as well Smiley
  

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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #13 - 05/04/04 at 12:06:48
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Quote:
In the 3.Nf3 lines after 9...ed 10.ed Nge7 the main problem for black is that white has so many 11th move possibilities and it's quite bewildering to attempt to learn them all.


there is no need to learn all these possibilities rowrulz, first of all 9...Qd6 is probably better than 9..ed. Why release the tension so early? and secondly 1d4 d5 2c4 Nc6 3Nf3 Bg4 4cd Bxf3 5gf Qxd5 6e3 e6 7Nc3 Qh5 is fine for black and easier to play then 6...e5 for instance,  8Bd2 0-0-0 9f4 Qxd1+ 10Rxd1 Nf6 or Nge7 and black will play for g5 break with a roughly equal ending (though admittedly it probably wouldnt be much fun to play against Kramnik  Wink) or if white avoids queenswap with 8 Be2 then 8...Nge7 9f4 Qh4 10Bf3 0-0-0 11Bd2 was Piza-Novak(1991), and now according to Keene/Jacobs Black should play 11...g5!? with complicated play.
I agree with you that 3Nc3 poses the most problems for black. what do people consider the best line for Black after 1d4 d5 2c4 Nc6 3Nc3 Nf6 4Nf3 dc 5e4 Bg4 6Be3... ? and of course in this line white can also play 5d5  Na5 6Qa4+ c6 7b4 b5 8Qxa5 Qxa5 9ba b4 10Nd1 cd 11 g3 which is a real pain to play against if white knows his stuff  Cry
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #12 - 05/04/04 at 08:14:16
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Quote:
Either way black seems to have a quite healty alternative in 9...Qd6 10.Rb1 b6 11.Rg1 (11.f4!? as Kasparov played against Smyslov in the 1984 candidates match could be best, but IM Watson has cited an improvement or two for black.  I can dig these up if you are interested.)


Glad you found the game useful!

I'm just generally interested in openings, and at one point in time I thought about having the Chigorin as an extra, but the Dutch is just too fun to play!  Cheesy

So there's no need to go digging in the archives, but it would be nice to hear why Brynell lost that game if you find anything, is Bg2 and Rg1 really so strong??

(Chucky has a funny style of play, in last year's Sigeman tournament, he beat Hector in a Ruy, by playing Kh1, Kh2, Kg1 seemingly pointlessly - at least no one in the commenting room could explain why, but he won rather convincingly...)

Btw, since you mention Watson, I think he had a chapter discussing the Chigorin in his book: Secrets of Modern Chess Strategy, concerning the seemingly strange idea that it's black who's trying to open the position, when this is supposed to favour the bishop pair.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #11 - 05/04/04 at 07:08:03
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In addition I'd like to add the following line:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cd Qd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bc3 7.Bc3 ed 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.f3 Be6!? 10.Nd4 0-0-0 11.Qa4 Nge7 12.Nc6 Nc6 13.Bb5 Qc5! which is very reasonable for black.

In the 3.Nf3 lines after 9...ed 10.ed Nge7 the main problem for black is that white has so many 11th move possibilities and it's quite bewildering to attempt to learn them all.  At the moment I'm just trying to play the positions by 'feel' but against strong prepared opponents this could yet prove disastrous!

Personally though I feel 3.Nc3 is whites best try for an advantage.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #10 - 05/04/04 at 02:23:15
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Google for Wisnewski and Tschigorin, but it's all in German and only part of his Chigorin analysis is for free.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #9 - 05/02/04 at 16:52:31
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Bonsai,

Is it possible for me to get my hands on this information?  I am most curious how FM Wisnewski suggests meeting the "anti-Chigorins".

Regards,

PoisonedPawn
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #8 - 05/02/04 at 14:18:36
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From my experience playing the Chigorin I don't think lines with 3Nf3 pose such a problem for Black. Like Poisoned Pawn says, in the Ivanchuk-Brynell game above, Black can avoid a lot of hassle (and theory!) with 6...e6 instead of 6...e5.   
I think bigger problems exist in 3Nc3 and 3cd lines. For instance 3Nc3 Nf6 4Nf3 dc (Bf5 has been played here by Miladinovic but doesnt seem quite trustworthy) 5e4 Bg5 6Be3 is surely a critical line. Moro doesnt seem to be playing Chigorin much anymore, there was some speculation that this was because of problems in this particular line, though I havent seen any concrete analysis. 
Thing is most people at club level seem to play 3Nf3 which is probably easiest line to play against for Chigorin player  Smiley
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #7 - 05/02/04 at 12:24:53
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I've mostly played against the Chigorin as white in the past (and have occasionally used it in blitz games myself) and I have yet to find a particularly promising way of playing against it. I feel that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 and 3.cxd5 put the most pressure on black, but I haven't seen or found anything terribly convincing.
I played those 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 Nf6 lines for a while, but they are really scarry for white (and possibly even offer black the better chances), if black knows his theory and attacking various ideas. I'd really like some new ideas for white as you may have guessed Wink.

Recently the local Chigorin guru of my area FM Wisnewski has offered some material on the Chigorin online including some free sample bits. He seems to think that 3.cxd5 is most critical (but also says that black does okay in the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 Nf6 line). As to the 2.Nf3 lines, which several people have mentioned above, he states that black is absolutely fine in the 2...Nc6 3.Bf4 variations, but he thinks that black has to be a bit careful about 3.g3 - in particular he says that the ...Bg4, ...Qd7, ...0-0-0 lines are too dangerous here (and recommends some other ideas instead).

Somehow it seems to be that every book author who makes recommendations against the Chigorin doesn't look at some important lines carefully enough (in particular those played by Morozevich often seem to contain excellent ways to a good game for black - and they usually end up being subvariations).
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #6 - 05/02/04 at 09:46:58
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Wonderer,

Thanks for this game!  I was not aware of it.  I will be frank, I need to go to work in a few minutes today so I don't have time to really study the game.  I will take a good look at this game in a day or so when I have time to look at it properly.

That being said I do have time to make a couple of comments:

a) This line, e.g. the 1.d4 d4 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3, line is not considered to be dangerous for black right now due to many new moves discovered.  For one 6...e6 7.Nc3 Qh5 8.f4 leads to an equal game for black if he knows what he is doing.

b) Some consider 9...exd4 too obliging in opening up the position for white's bishops.  I am still somewhat new to the opening and can't claim to have either studied the positions enough, or to have enough experience, to really know how to answer that.

Either way black seems to have a quite healty alternative in 9...Qd6 10.Rb1 b6 11.Rg1 (11.f4!? as Kasparov played against Smyslov in the 1984 candidates match could be best, but IM Watson has cited an improvement or two for black.  I can dig these up if you are interested.) 11....Nge7! 12.Rxg7 Rhe8 and tactical problems prevent white from taking the second pawn and black will use his lead of development to create threats against the white king.

c) 11.Bg2 seems to be a new move.  Apparently Chucky knew this and wanted to get his lower rated opponent out of any preparation.

Interesting game, once again thanks and I will look more into it soon!

I am still quite interested about the real Nf3 sidelines, although I find it interesting that many of the top players (like Chucky did here) take the game into pure Chigorin channels instead of running straight for the "London" or fianchetto sidelines.

I guess I am trying to ascertain whether the strength of these sidelines are just myth due to the lack of theory or reality.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #5 - 05/02/04 at 04:43:52
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I followed the following game live during the swedish team final, and was impressed by Chucky's handling of the bishop pair and rook ending. Where did black go wrong?

Ivanchuk,V (2716) - Brynell,S (2467) [D07]
TCh-SWE 2003-4 Goteborg SWE (11), 14.03.2004

1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nc6 3.c4 Bg4 4.cxd5 Bxf3 5.gxf3 Qxd5 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 9.bxc3 exd4 10.cxd4 Nge7 11.Bg2 0-0-0 12.Qb3 Qg5 13.Rg1 Qh5 14.Rb1 b6 15.f4 Rd6 16.Kf1 Rhd8 17.Qb5 Qxb5+ 18.Rxb5 g6 19.Rb2 f5 20.Rc2 Re6 21.h4 h5 22.Bf3 Nd5 23.Kg2 Nce7 24.Rgc1 c6 25.Bxd5 Rxd5 26.Bb4 Kd7 27.Bxe7 Kxe7 28.Rxc6 Rxc6 29.Rxc6 Ra5 30.Rxg6 Rxa2 31.Rg5 Kf6 32.Rxh5 b5 33.Rh7 b4 34.h5 a5 35.Rc7 b3 36.h6 Rc2 37.h7 Rxc7 38.h8Q+ Rg7+ 39.Kf3 a4 40.Qh6+ 1-0

  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #4 - 05/02/04 at 00:29:44
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I have recently taken up the Chigorin and I am not convinced that 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 without c4 is any big deal for white.

a) Doesn't 3.Bg5!? meet a timely ...f6 with a kind of reversed Ritcher-Versov attack for black, since white will end up losing a tempo with his bishop?

b) IM Dunnington on his book on the Chigorin doesn't think that 3.Bf4 is any big deal unless white follows up with an eventual c4, which transposes into "normal" Chigorin variations.

c) 3.g3 is a logical choice and valid try.  However after 3...Bg4 (3...g6!? as played by Morozevich) 4.Bg2 Qd7 the position will become very sharp with opposite sides castling.  I know I have seen GM Short defend the black side of this quite succesfully in some blitz games on the ICC.

d) As for the line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2

It is my understanding that black is no longer worried about this line at all since 8...Nf6 9.Nb5 Qg5! is a pawn sacrifice that has held up well for black.  In fact it seems that white players are now avoiding this line in search of something more clear.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #3 - 01/08/04 at 16:19:55
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I'll just add that Watson favorably reviewed Breutigam's Chigorin Chessbase CD (although I think that was in an earlier review) and really seemed to like Valeri Brozniks book on the Chigorin.
  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #2 - 01/08/04 at 16:17:50
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John Watson recently reviewed several of the books/cd on the Chigorin, go to http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/jwatsonbkrev46.html. ; He writes that he doesn't believe White can get more than a normal opening advantage against the Chigorin the same as with other sound openings.  I don't know if that applies to the 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 move order too.

  
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Re: Critical lines of the Chigorin
Reply #1 - 01/07/04 at 15:37:10
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My understanding was that Black is having a hard time in the line (1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6) 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2.  I am not completely up to date with all this though, and the line 8...Bg4 9.f3 Bxf3 certainly looks messy to me!

This line is obviously only a problem if White plays the 'normal' move order (1.d4 and 2.c4).  However, the sun is not necessarily shining on the Chigorin if White plays 2.Nf3 (or 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4) either, as then (after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6) White can avoid the Chigorin proper with 3.Bf4, 3.g3, or even 3.Bg5!?.  None of these offers Black a clear-cut path to equality, imho.

  

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Critical lines of the Chigorin
01/06/04 at 22:37:59
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Any thoughts on what the currently critical lines of the Chigorin are?

I see that one of the great proponents of the Chirgorin, Igor Miladinovic, recently won the Reggio Emilia Chess Tournament, which is traditionally a strong event. He only played the Chigorin once, and drew easily against an innocuous line:

Komarov,D (2566) - Miladinovic,I (2599) [D07]
46th It Reggio Emilia ITA (2), 28.12.2003

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e3 Bg4 6.Bxc4 e6 7.h3 Bh5 8.Bb5 a6 9.Bxc6+ bxc6 10.Qa4 Bxf3 11.gxf3 Qd7 12.Rg1 Nd5 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.Qxd7+ Kxd7 15.Bd2 g6 16.Ke2 ½-½

What lines should I be worried about as Black right now?




  
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