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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!? (Read 33171 times)
8arms
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #44 - 06/11/06 at 13:38:54
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JEH wrote on 06/11/06 at 13:22:43:
Have you entered the game correctly? 17 axb3 means that Qc7 is not check.


Aha! Now that does make a difference ...
  
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JEH
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #43 - 06/11/06 at 13:22:43
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Have you entered the game correctly? 17 axb3 means that Qc7 is not check.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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8arms
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #42 - 06/11/06 at 12:38:38
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JEH wrote on 06/11/06 at 10:26:03:
8arms wrote on 06/11/06 at 09:30:04:
Just wondering what happens if Black instead plays 19 ...Bxd5 - surely that must be winning or at least a Black plus there?


Well if you want to munch poisoned rooks, then maybe the Dragon isn't for you  Wink

Both sides should be willing to jettison material for that one precious tempo that means they to the enemy king first and finely balance attack with defence, priortising moves that do both.

After Bxd5, White doesn't waste a whole move retaking a mere Bishop. No, 20. hxg wins by force!


Black must defend along the 7th rank with 19. ...Rb7 or with the Queen (e.g. 19. ...Qc7 both defends and attacks)


Much appreciate your response JEH,
But what happens if after 20. hxg6 Qc7+ 21. Kb1 (or any other aquare) fxg6 - surely White hasn't got enough fire power to continue with his attack?! Am I missing something here (I'm using Fritz 7 to check things out here)?
  
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JEH
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #41 - 06/11/06 at 10:26:03
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8arms wrote on 06/11/06 at 09:30:04:
Just wondering what happens if Black instead plays 19 ...Bxd5 - surely that must be winning or at least a Black plus there?


Well if you want to munch poisoned rooks, then maybe the Dragon isn't for you  Wink

Both sides should be willing to jettison material for that one precious tempo that means they get to the enemy king first, and to finely balance attack with defence, priortising moves that do both.

After Bxd5, White doesn't waste a whole move retaking a mere Bishop. No, 20. hxg wins by force!


Black must defend along the 7th rank with 19. ...Rb7 or with the Queen (e.g. 19. ...Qc7 both defends and attacks)
« Last Edit: 06/11/06 at 13:23:35 by JEH »  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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8arms
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #40 - 06/11/06 at 09:30:04
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Hi All (and Chris),

Thinking of taking up the Dragon and in particular the Chinese Dragon variation just to liven my repertoire up a bit (I'm a French and Dutch Defence devotee). I've found this thread and this forum invigorating to say the least and have been looking into a few games, in particular this game below and move 19 ...Rb7. Just wondering what happens if Black instead plays 19 ...Bxd5 - surely that must be winning or at least a Black plus there?

[Event "Port Erin"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2002.??.??"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Felgaer, Ruben"]
[Black "Ward, Christopher"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2509"]
[BlackElo "2498"]
[NIC "SI 18.16.1"]
[ECO "B78"]
[PlyCount "61"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 
9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rb8 11. Bb3 Na5 12. Bh6 b5 13. h4 Bxh6 14. Qxh6 e5 15. Nde2 
b4 16. Nd5 Nxb3  17. axb3 Nxd5 18. Rxd5 Be6 19. h5 Rb7 20. Rd3 Qe7 21. f4 exf4 22. 
Nxf4 Rc8 23. hxg6 fxg6 24. Rg3 Qc7 25. Rxg6  Kh8 26. Rg8  Kxg8 27. Qxe6  Kh8 28. 
Qf6  Kg8 29. Qe6  Kh8 30. Qf6  Kg8 31. Qe6  1/2-1/2
  
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #39 - 04/06/06 at 06:44:14
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14.g4 e6 is worth some investigation but I'm not sure things are so simple for Black.  I think that Black should either deviate at move 13 or play the line XChess indicated, namely the rather forcing

14.g4 b4 15.Nd5 Nxd5 16.exd5 e5 17.dxe6 Nxb3+ 18.Nxb3 Bxe6

when White has a large choice available (though Kb1 shows appropriate concern for the a-pawn), and it seems that, Black is, at worst, only suffering a little.

A small question is why 19.Kb1 Bxb3 is dubious as after 20.axb3 Qc7 it seems that Black's pressure on the c-file balances White's on the h-file.  I think this is Black's simplest path, but perhaps there is a tactic that I am missing.
  
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #38 - 04/03/06 at 22:32:21
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After 14.g4 e6 it's equal.
  
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #37 - 04/03/06 at 21:49:01
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If 14.g4 black will never answer with 14..e5? due to 15.Nf5!. But black can answer 14...b4 15.Nd5 Nxd5! 16.exd5 ( If 16.Bxd5 e6 or 16...Kh8 are good enough. I never checked 16...b3) 16...e5! (It is the right move. 16...Nxb3+ is playable but in the end transposes to 16...e5!) 17.dxe6 (white has to do this if he wants to fight for ay advantage) Nxb3+ 18.Nxb3 (18.axb3 fxe6 aproximately equal. 18.cxb3 fxe6! [18...Rc8+ looks good only for obteining a black advantage] 19.h4 Qf6 20.Kb1 e5 21.Nc2 Bc6 22.Ne1 e4 23.Qc1 Rb6 24.Rf1 exf3 25.Nd3 Qxh4 26.Qc4+ Rf7-+. Probably here it could be looked for any improvement, but black does very well anyway.) Bxe6 (only move) 19.Kb1 Re8! (I believe this is the right way to play and not 19...Bxb3?! 20.axb3 Re8 21.Qd2! Qf6 22.Rhf1 with an edge for white [check it with your PCs]) after all that:

a) 20.h4 Bxb3! (Only now is good the trade!!!!!) 21.axb3 (21.cxb3 Qf6 22.h5 Re2 23.Qc1 Qxf3 24.hxg6 hxg6 25.Qh6 Qf6 26.Qh7+ Kf8 27.Qh6+ Ke7 28.Rd2 Qe5 29.Rxe2 Qxe2 with a slight edge for black) and in this position 21...Re6! (not 21...Re2 due to 22.h5). This position is for more analysis. But a posible variation could be 22.Rhe1 Rxe1 23.Rxe1 Rb5 24.Rd1 Qe7 25.Qd2 Qxh4 26.Qxd6 Kg7 27.Qd7 a6 28.Qc7 h6 29.Qc4 Qg3 =

b) 20.Qd2 (I believe this is the most dangerous move) Qf6 21.Rhf1 Bc4 22.Rf2 slight better for white. But still to investigate.

There plenty of possibilties. I invite everybody to investigate and share your thoughts.

Regards
XChess1971
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Fernando Semprun
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #36 - 04/03/06 at 11:17:43
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I am curious about the omission of one of the critical lines IMHO. Namely, and citing your original post:

g) 11.Bb3 Na5 12.Bh6 (12.h4 b5 13.h5 Nc4 14.Bxc4 bxc4 15.Bh6 Qb6 16.b3 Bxh6 17.Qxh6 Qa5 18.Kb2 Rfc8 with counterplay; it's also possible 15.hxg6 fxg6 =) 12...Bxh6 (12...Nxb3+ 13.Nxb3!? with the idea Bxg7 and h4) 13.Qxh6 b5 14.Nd5!? (14.h4 e5! 15.Nde2 b4 16.Nd5 Nxb3+ 17.axb3 Nxd5 18.Rxd5 Rb6! with good position for black )14...e5 15.Nf5 (15.Nxf6+ Qxf6 16.Ne2 Nxb3+ 17.axb3 b4 18.h4 Rfc8 with counterplay) 15...Nxb3+ 16.axb3 Bxf5 17.exf5 Nxd5 18.Rxd5 Rb6!?= 
 
14. g4(!) to answer 14...e5 with Nf5 and a terrific attack.

Care to reply?

Regards,

  

Fernando Semprun
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #35 - 04/02/06 at 00:28:22
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Yiu do vryy welp typoing witj jusrt your tows.  i try amd it is very hart to do,  too badf aboyt your fingrs.  
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #34 - 04/01/06 at 21:39:57
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I have no hands I used my toes.

XChess1971
  
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #33 - 04/01/06 at 21:37:42
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Well, you finally spoke up.  Thanks.  I thought your fingers had been chopped off.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #32 - 04/01/06 at 20:05:29
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I'll answer the people who have no knowledge on those codes. If you copy them into a new file, and save it giving it the extension .pgn. Then with a PGN Chess Viewer you will be able to visualize the analisys, including the comments.
I hope that this makes it clear for people that do not know anything about it.

Regards
XChess1971
Wink
  
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #31 - 04/01/06 at 17:32:30
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I'll answer the question:  It's just a bunch of garbage.
  
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Re: Chinese Dragon - 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rb8!?
Reply #30 - 03/26/06 at 02:09:05
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What's with all the brackets and strange codes?
  
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