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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BDG Ziegler Defense (Read 68466 times)
MNb
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #122 - 08/10/05 at 21:37:06
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If I have understood all postings correctly, also the Alchemy Variation is close to refutation.
Concerning 6.Bd3: after g6 Black transposes to the Bogoljubov Defense and the White bishop is misplaced on d3. Moreover Black has 4...c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5.
As 7.Ne5 e6 8.o-o Bg6! leaves White a pawn down with nothing, White's last vague hope indeed is 7.o-o e6 8.Ng5.
  

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Gambit
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #121 - 08/10/05 at 21:33:52
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Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.O-O e6 8.Ng5.

So after six very long pages what is the final verdict on the above line. White seems to be losing at best and already dead lost at worse.

It could well be that the future of the BDG rests squarely on the shoulders of one move: 8.Ng5. Thats a tall order for any move, but such as life in the Gambit fast lane.

According to Arkhein 6.Bd3 is an interesting alternative, but once again its just a pawn down with inadequate compensation. Besides, if black likes he can simply use the O'Kelly move order and 'force' you into the dodgy 8.Ng5 business. Alchemy indeed, in fact you do have a better chance of turning base metal into gold than making this junk viable.

The strongest argument I've seen so far for the BDG is that its fun. So we can safely conclude that the BDG is fun for White but a point for Black.

I'll take the point thank you.

Toppylov Grin 



I defeated 5 Nxf3 c6  with the waiting move 6 a3!. Check the analyses and games in Blackmar-Diemer Gambit World magazine #79.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #120 - 08/10/05 at 21:07:00
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.O-O e6 8.Ng5.

So after six very long pages what is the final verdict on the above line. White seems to be losing at best and already dead lost at worse.

It could well be that the future of the BDG rests squarely on the shoulders of one move: 8.Ng5. Thats a tall order for any move, but such as life in the Gambit fast lane.

According to Arkhein 6.Bd3 is an interesting alternative, but once again its just a pawn down with inadequate compensation. Besides, if black likes he can simply use the O'Kelly move order and 'force' you into the dodgy 8.Ng5 business. Alchemy indeed, in fact you do have a better chance of turning base metal into gold than making this junk viable.

The strongest argument I've seen so far for the BDG is that its fun. So we can safely conclude that the BDG is fun for White but a point for Black.

I'll take the point thank you.

Toppylov Grin
  

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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #119 - 08/09/05 at 22:19:44
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 is ¨¨the main move, and most of us in the forum know that the "Alchemy Variant" is surely an improvement over the "refutation" from Andrew Martin.

but 6.Bd3 is equally interesting. After ..Bg4 7.h3 Bxf3 8.Qxf3 Qxd4 9.Be3 followed by 0-0-0 ressemble to 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 8.g4!!?Qxd4 9.Be3 which leads to an interesting play.
  
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #118 - 08/09/05 at 21:26:21
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I think MNb means 7.O-O e6 8.Ng5.

In that case the answer is no.  TopNotch is just being provocative again.  Curious post, since it was exactly that article that generated interest in this thread.  (Read the first post.)
  

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MNb
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #117 - 08/09/05 at 00:17:46
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Does Martin mention 7.Ng5 then? You see, that is what most posts are about.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #116 - 08/07/05 at 18:50:37
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I've lost track, has Martin's REFUTATION been refuted?

Or are the BDGeers still shopping for tombstones.

Tops  Grin
  

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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #115 - 05/20/05 at 06:33:51
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"What do you think of the material imbalance after
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5 Bxc2 9.Nxf7 Kxf7 10.Qxc2 Qxd4+ 11.Be3 Qxc4 12.Rf4! Qxf4 13.Bxf4 Bc5+ 14.Kf1 Nbd7 ?
I think black is at least equal here. "

I think:
14.Kh1! (14.Kf1?!) with aggressive possibility, for example:
14...Nbd7 15.Rf1! Rad8 16.Bc7 Rc8 17.Bg3 h6 18.Ne4 Be7 19.Bd6 Rhf8 20.Qb3 Nb6 (20...b6 21.g4+/-) 21.g4 +/-
  
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #114 - 05/20/05 at 01:15:11
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What do you think of the material imbalance after

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5 Bxc2 9.Nxf7 Kxf7 10.Qxc2 Qxd4+ 11.Be3 Qxc4 12.Rf4! Qxf4 13.Bxf4 Bc5+ 14.Kf1 Nbd7 ?

I think black is at least equal here.
  

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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #113 - 05/19/05 at 21:05:30
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I started looking at the most principled continuation 8...Bxc2 to see why many people consider this line to very dangerous for black.  I admit that I had not really looked at this line carefully, before looking at the more analyzed 8...Bg6.  I am noticing a pattern that when I do not look carefully at the most principled line, I later tend to regret it.  Now when I am looking at the line, black looks very good!  On Rajmund's website, the line he considers to be critical is:

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5 Bxc2 9.Nxf7! Kxf7 10.Qxc2! Qxd4+ 11.Be3

I believe the lines 9.Qe2, 9.Qxc2, 9.Nxf7 Kxf7 10.Qe2, and 9.Nxf7 Kxf7 10.Bxe6 are advantageous for black.  Patrik (Sevenviolets) wrote a summary of these lines on page 3 of this thread.  The line 9.Qe2 was analyzed to a safe advantage for black by Bonsai in this thread.

However, I have a question on the line 9.Nxf7 Kxf7 10. Qxc2 Qxd4+ 11.Be3.  Here the only continuation considered is 11...Qxe3+.  When I looked at the position after 11.Be3 the first move I considered was 11...Qxc4, and when I looked further at the analysis on Rajmund's site, I was surprised it wasn't considered.  It seems natural to me to remove the light-squared bishop which targets e6 and black's general light-square weakenesses on the kingside.  Taking the bishop on e3 is very dangerous for these reasons, as Rajmund demonstrates in his analysis.  At first, I thought I was missing a simple tactic after 11...Qxc4, but looked and found nothing immediate.  Then I looked at what long term pressure white had, but never found anything remotely convincing.  Without the light-squared bishop, white's pressure seems significantly weakened.  Here are a couple of possibilities:

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5 Bxc2 9.Nxf7 Kxf7 10.Qxc2 Qxd4+ 11.Be3 Qxc4 12.b3 Qb4 13.Ne4 Nbd7 14.Ng5+ Kg8 15.a3 [15.Nxe6 Qe4] Qe7 16.Qc4 Re8 17.Rae1 h6

I don't see anything approaching compensation for the piece.  Black doesn't seem to have a difficult defense either.  Is there something I am missing after 11...Qxc4?

Update:  12.Rf4! traps the queen.  Seeing the blunder in Anand-Kramnik made me think about this.  (Kramnik missed a horizontal rook double attack.)  After 12.Rf4 Qa6 13.Ra4 surprisingly wins the queen!  I wondered why this move wasn't considered.  The computers probably picked it up in a second!  I think this at least deserves a footnote in the analysis, as 11...Qxc4 is natural move for a human player.  It is very disturbing to miss something like this!

At first impulse, I thought about deleting this post.  However, I don't think this is completely useless.  After all, black gets a knight, rook and two pawns for a queen.  At least I think the move deserves consideration.
« Last Edit: 05/20/05 at 00:44:14 by X »  

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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #112 - 05/19/05 at 15:03:55
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OK, so 16...0-0?? is a total blunder.  17.Nxg6! was kind of an obvious move to miss.  I'm sorry, I don't use computers to check my analysis.  I suppose I should buy an engine for this purpose.  I have a tendency to sometimes make stupid mistakes like this, especially when I am exploring a line of play too deeply, before checking the alternatives.  I hope you excuse this, because this is a learning process for me.  Sometimes I get carried away when I see an interesting idea.  Sometimes, an idea that fails to tactical refutation can fail in one line, but work in another.  Other times, it just doesn't work.   But for me that's part of learning.  I don't expect perfection on the first attempt.  Only here, it's very embarassing to miss such a simple combination.  (Not like I haven't done it before.)  All I can say is that when I see an idea that looks promising, I post it for discussion, hoping that it will add greater insight to the position.  Perhaps, I should be more careful, but my time is limited.  If I tried to put the same quality in replies, as though I were writing a book, I probably would not post at all (or there would be a lengthy delay).  Contrary to what my posts may suggest, I actually do have a high standard on quality.  However, in a discussion I feel that mistakes are an inevitable part of the process.  Though perhaps, I should be a little more careful at times...

As far as the position after 16.Qd3 goes, I am out of ideas for black!  16...Rh6 seems like the best move, but it seems too awkward for it be good for black.  I think white has real pressure.  To be honest, I have doubts about 9...Nd5 in general.  I think the only chance left to show something for black is the more natural 12...Qd8, but still I think white has strong pressure here.  My original intention behind 9...Nd5 was to avoid the complications of the other lines, but without conceding the dark-squared bishop.  However, it seems that black has to make too many awkward moves.  I started to feel very suspicious when black was making the moves Nf6-d5-f6, Qd8-d6-d7, Na6-c7.  Sure, black is interfering with white's plans, but at what cost?  I am reaching the conclusion that the cost is too great.  So maybe someone else can find an idea to make 9...Nd5 work.  Now my impression is that maybe black's best is to enter the direct complications associated with the sacrifices on e6.  
  

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BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #111 - 05/19/05 at 03:34:37
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"1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5 Bg6 9.Ne2 Nd5!? 10.Bd3 Qd6 11.c4 Nf6 12.Bf4 Qd7!? 13.Be5 Be7 14.Nf4 Na6 15.Bxg6 hxg6 16.Qd3
16...0-0! 17.Qh3"
(why?)

better 17.Nxg6 (Excuse me, but the move takes - for example by Shredder - about  2 sec.; 17.Nfxe6+- too) 17...fxg6 18.Qxg6 Qe8 19.Rxf6+-
  
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #110 - 05/18/05 at 17:38:49
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This is my analysis of the continuation with 16.Qd3 0-0 17.Qh3 Nh5:

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5 Bg6 9.Ne2 Nd5!? 10.Bd3 Qd6 11.c4 Nf6 12.Bf4 Qd7!? 13.Be5 Be7 14.Nf4 Na6 15.Bxg6 hxg6 16.Qd3

16...0-0! 17.Qh3 Nh5! 18.Bxg7

  [18.Nxh5 Bxg5 19.Nxg7 f6!µ;
   18.Nf3 Nxf4 19.Bxf4 Rad8 20.Rad1 c5µ]

18...Bxg5!

  [18...Kxg7? 19.Nxh5+ gxh5 20.Qxh5 Qxd4+ 21.Kh1  Bxg5 22.Qxg5+ Kh8 23.Rf6]

19.Nxh5 [19.Bxf8 Nxf4µ] 19...gxh5 20.Qxh5 f6 21.Qh8+ Kf7 22.Bxf8 [22.Qh7 Qxd4+ 23.Kh1 Qh4-+] 22...Rxf8 [22...Qxd4+? 23.Kh1 Rxf8 24.Qh7+ Ke8 25.Rad1] 23.Qh7+ Ke8 24.Qe4 f5 25.Qd3 Nc5µ

  

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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #109 - 05/18/05 at 15:26:42
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Yes, I don't think things are so great for black after 16...Rf8.  Black's king placement and the weakness on e6 give white too much compensation.  Something made me feel a little uneasy about this, especially when I thought about it more after waking up.  After 16...Rf8, black seems to be making too many awkward moves.  I think the only idea left to make 12...Qd7 work is with 16...0-0.  I had initially not considered this move, as I thought it was bad due to 17.Qh3 (the reason 0-0 usually fails), however Qd7 seems to serve a useful purpose here in that it defends e6, and free the king's rook.

For example, after 16.Qd3 0-0 17.Qh3 Rfd8, 18.Bxf6 Bxf6 19.Qh7+ and sacrifices on g6 seem to back fire. Still white may have enough compensation after 18.Rad1, though the problem for white's attack seems to be that it is difficult to find more constructive moves to find a way into black's position.  I think the assessment depends on the quality of black's counterplay at this point.  If white has enough time, he can play for a rook lift with Qh4, Rf3-h3.

So after 16.Qd3 0-0 17.Qh3, 17...Rfd8?! is not so clear; however, I think 17...Nh5!? needs to considered.  So far, I have analyzed the resulting complications in black's favor, so I think this is critical.  This needs to be checked, since if this idea works, I think black's position is viable to play for an advantage.  Here, I think it is important to leave the rook on f8 to make this resource work as it serves a useful defensive function, which is one reason I do not like 17...Rfd8.

That's it for now.  I might post some more analysis later, but right now I'm hungry.
  

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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #108 - 05/18/05 at 07:42:55
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I think, the variant 12...Qd7 is good for White too.

1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8.Ng5 Bg6 9.Ne2 Nd5 10.Bd3 Qd6 11.c4 Nf6 12.Bf4 Qd7 13.Be5 Be7 [13...Bd6 14.Bxg6 hxg6 15.Qb3 Bc7 16.Rad1 Qc8 17.Qg3 Na6 18.Qf3+/-] 14.Nf4 Na6 15.Bxg6 hxg6 16.Qd3 Rh6

[16...Rf8? 17.Nxg6 (or 17.Nfxe6+- ) 17...fxg6 18.Qxg6+ Kd8 19.Qxg7+-;

16...Nb4 17.Qg3 Rf8 18.Ngxe6 fxe6 19.Qxg6+ Kd8 20.Qxg7 Ne8 21.Qg6 Nc7 22.Bxc7+ Kxc7 23.Nxe6+ Kb6 24.a3+/-]

17.Qe2 Nc7 18.Rad1 Qd8 19.Nd3 Rh5 20.Qe3 Na6 [20...Ng4 21.Qf4 Nxe5 22.dxe5+/-] 21.Qg3 Qd7 22.Kh1 Rd8 23.Rde1 Kf8 24.Bxf6 gxf6 25.Nxe6+ fxe6 26.Qxg6+/-
  
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