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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BDG Ziegler Defense (Read 68888 times)
lnn2
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #17 - 11/26/04 at 05:58:54
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I have checked that Rajmunde website. It's http://www.mujweb.cz/www/rajmunde/ec_ena_alch.htm isn't it?

The very computerish analysis on that page is a couple of years old. Maybe they should upgrade their PC and run fritz again...  Roll Eyes


  
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MNb
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #16 - 11/26/04 at 05:44:25
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<I hope we busted the BDG once and for all.>
I doubt it. Inn2, have you already checked the website of Rajmunde Emanuel? If I remember well, he deals with 9...c5 too.
My personal bust of the BDG is 5...Bf5, eventually saving a tempo on 5...c6 and intending a counter sac after 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Ne4!
The Euwe Defense 5...e6 is also solid enough.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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lnn2
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #15 - 11/26/04 at 04:08:45
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Quote:
And if White tries something funny after 9... c5 like sacrificing on e6 it's simply not enough with only the bishop on c4 and Knight on g5 (why else would he bother to maneuver the knight to f4 in the first place).


To illustrate if this might not be so clear:

6. Bc4 Bf5 7. O-O Bg6 8. Ng5 e6 9. Ne2 c5 10. Nxe6?? fxe6 11. Bxe6 cxd4! 12. Nf4 Qb6! 13. Nxg6 (13. Re1 Bb4!) hxg6 14. Re1 Bd6 15. Bb3+ Kd7!16. h3 Nc6 -+

I hope we busted the BDG once and for all. RIP.  Grin
  
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lnn2
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #14 - 11/26/04 at 03:40:42
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This is in reply to Teyko from the "Why is the BDG so misunderstood?" thread. I refer to Teyko's lines in this thread and in the given web page above (http://www.mujweb.cz/www/rajmunde/ec_ena_alch.htm).

He thinks the ziegler is good for White. I think not.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4  
6...Bf5 7.0-0 e6 8. Ng5 (the so-called alchemy variation)

8... Bg6 9. Ne2 (the brilliant idea is to maneuver to play Nf4 so as to sac on e6.. very cute indeed and might well catch alot of people out).

But Teyko (and the website) fail to deal with 9... c5!. This is a most classical and natural move. When White has moved his pieces away from the centre (look at the knights on g5 and e2!), Black strikes at the centre.

The most principled reply imho seems to be 10. Bb5+.

But that's nothing after 10... Nc6. Against 11. Nf3, 11. c3 and 11. Be3  Black replies to all with 11... Qb6!
If 11. Bxc6 bxc6 12. c3 Qb6! followed by Rd8 against just about every sensible move -+.

If White does not play 10. Bb5+,
Nc6/Qb6/Rd8/cxd4/Bc5 are all possible moves in one order or another. e.g. 10. c3 Nc6!

And if White tries something funny after 9... c5 like sacrificing on e6 it's simply not enough with only the bishop on c4 and Knight on g5 (why else would he bother to maneuver the knight to f4 in the first place). I am not going to post meaningless analysis. (just use fritz).

The best way to counter this sort of gambit is to stick to classical chess principles. When your opponent attacks you at the side bash him in the centre! It may be a dogmatic, stodgy and old fashioned view of chess but this is the way to go against gambit crazed attackers.
  
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Markovich
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #13 - 09/17/04 at 14:00:34
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I recently bought a gold membership here and, by and large, I am happy.

But it amazes me  Shocked that an entire section of the site is devoted to the BDG and similar suboptimal 1. d4 d5 ideas  Tongue, while (a) the entire Open Sicilian, minus the Dragon, and (b) the entirety 1. d4 d5 minus this strange stuff, have to make do with just one section each!

I venture to guess that there are more top-level games played in the Catalan alone -- a system that is actually playable for a win against strong opposition Grin -- than there are in all the systems considered in this section of the site.

Relevant to this thread, it is most amusing to read about the "Ziegler Defense," and lines with names similarly contrived to suggest that there is actually a theory of the Blackmar-Deimer that anyone cares about besides a few people for whom chess, if not played in gambit fashion, is a very dull game.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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MNb
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #12 - 09/15/04 at 22:14:13
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One certainly has to be a fanatic BDG'er to take a losening move like 9.g4 seriously.
As stated a few times already - not only in this thread - the Alchemy Variation is critical. I am curious, if anyone has tried this in practice already.
Again: the title of this subject should be changed in Von Hennig-Milner Barry Gambit. Who the h** was Ziegler?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #11 - 09/12/04 at 18:12:01
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The game A Rodriguez - E Bricard (2450) Toulouse CEIT op   Tolouse, 1998  proves what I already knew: That Gunderam's and Studier's analyses was flawed. You can find the entire move sequence, with exception of 14...Be3+ on page 80 of Das Moderne Blackmar-Diemer-Gambit, Band 3 (1980). In fact, I analysed  this line, and came to the conclusion that Gunderam's and Studier's 14...Rg8??  is a mistake.  It was only a matter of time before  someone found the same improvement I did.

For your information,  the game goes  1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4  3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3  5 Nxf3 c6  6 Bc4  Bf5  7 Ne5  e6  8 00  Bg6
9 g4  Nbd7  10 Nxg6  hg6  11 g5  Qc7  12 Bf4  Bd6  13 Bd6  gf6  14 fg7  Be3+  0-1

  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #10 - 05/07/04 at 07:45:08
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The Lemberger Defence is 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 which was analysed by GM Prie on his last update.  He stated he would be covering the 2 main responses (4.Nxe4 and 4.Nge2 I think) in the near future.
  
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PoisonedPawn
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #9 - 05/05/04 at 22:49:30
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And what the heck is the Lemberger defense????
  
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PoisonedPawn
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #8 - 05/05/04 at 22:33:43
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I am stunned!   Shocked  The variations look good...quite impressive!

I am again without a defense against the BDG.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #7 - 05/05/04 at 20:49:23
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That truly is a fascinating variation.  I'm still not clear on how strong the variation is but it brings hope in one line that I thought Black was just easily winning in.  For more on this go to http://www.mujweb.cz/www/rajmunde/ec_ena_alch.htm
  
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Teyko
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #6 - 05/05/04 at 18:31:57
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Here you go. I think it is a playable position at least.

B) 8...Bg6 9.Ne2! Be7

[a) 9...Bd6 10.Nf4 Nbd7 (10...Bxf4 11.Bxf4 Nd5 12.Bd2) 10...Bd611.Bxe6! fxe6 12.Nfxe6 Qb8 (12...Qe7 13.Re1 Rg8 14.Bf4+-) 13.Qe2 Bxh2+ 14.Kh1 Bd6 15.Bd2! Rg8 16.Rae1 Bg3 17.Bf4 Bxf4 18.Rxf4 h6 19.Nf8+ Kd8 20.Nge6+ Kc8 21.Nxg6+/-; 
b)9...h6 10.Nxe6 fxe6 11.Nf4 Bf7 12.Nxe6 Bxe6 13.Bxe6 Nbd7 14.Qd3 Qe7 15.Qg6+ Kd8 16.Bf5! Nb6 17.Bf4 Nbd5 18.Be5 Ne3 19.Rae1 Nfd5 20.Rf3 Nxf5 21.Rxf5+/-; 
c)9...Nbd7 10.Nf4 Be7 (10...Bd6 11.Bxe6 (-> 9..Be6) ) 11.Qe1 Nf8 12.c3 Bf5 13.Nh5 Nxh5 14.Rxf5 Nf6 15.Rf1 h6 16.Nf3 Ng6 17.Bd3 Nf8 (17...Qd6 18.Bxg6 fxg6 19.Ne5+/-) 18.Ne5 N8d7 19.Ng6+/-]
10.Nf4 Bf5 11.c3 0-0

[11...Na6 12.Nd3 Bg6 13.Ne5 Nc7 14.Bd3 (14.Qe1?! Rf8!~ (14...0-0?! 15.Nxg6 hxg6 16.Qh4 Re8 17.Rf3+/-) ) 14...0-0 15.Bxg6 hxg6 16.Qe1 Qe8 17.Rf3! (17.Qh4 Nh5 18.Nd3 (18.g4?! f6~) 18...Nd5 19.g4 Bxg5 20.Bxg5 f6 21.gxh5 fxg5 22.Qxg5 gxh5 23.Ne5 Rf6+/=) 17...Ncd5 18.Qh4 Nh5 19.Qh3 Bf6 20.g4 Bxg5 21.Bxg5+-]
12.Nfxe6 Bxe6 13.Bxe6 fxe6 (13...Qc7 - see the question 3) 14.Nxe6 Qb6 15.Nxf8 Bxf8 16.Rxf6 gxf6 17.Qg4+ Kf7 18.Qh3 Bg7 19.Qh5+ Kf8 20.Qxh7 Nd7 21.Bf4 c5 22.Re1 Re8 23.Rxe8+ Kxe8 24.Qxg7+/-
  
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PoisonedPawn
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #5 - 05/05/04 at 15:57:19
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Teyko,

IM Martin's suggested ...c6 was a very welcome relief for me, since I had problems with the BDG before in blitz games, and haven't lost to it since.

That out of the way, I am not so certain why 8.Ng5 is such a great move.  Black still seems rock solid, and a pawn up, to me.  I guess the idea is to play Ne2, Nf4, Nxg6 so the g5 knight is still covering the f7 pawn...but this takes a lot of time to accomplish.

I would be suprised if white has real comp here.

Lets see a line that supports your claim please!
  
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Teyko
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #4 - 05/05/04 at 13:48:56
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Dudes, what are you guys talking about.
Let's start here shall we.

A Rodriguez - E Bricard (2450) [D00]

Toulouse CEIT op Toulouse, 1998

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bc4
6...Bf5!  7.Ne5 (This is wrong) any good BDGr knows that the correct seventh move is 0-0. While he does give it some attention he follows it up wrong

Silman says" while 7.0-0 e6 (7...Bg6!? 8.Bf4 e6 is also good) 8.Qe1 (8.Be3 Nbd7 9.Qe2 Bd6 10.Rad1 Qc7 gives Black a clear plus) 8...Be7 9.Bg5 Nbd7 10.Qh4 Qb6 11.Kh1 0-0-0 12.Ne5 Bg6 with an obvious advantage. Black just has to exercise reasonable care."

But the correct move after e6 is 8. Ng5, the Alchemy Variation.



Now if 8...Bxc2 9. Qe2

and if 8. Bg6 9. Ne2!?

These are sharp positions for white where he still has attacking chances.

The only real issue for the Blackmar Diemar Gambit is the Hubsch and the obcure Bangiev Variation of the Bogoligbow defense.



  
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MNb
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Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #3 - 05/04/04 at 05:58:11
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I agree with Glenn Snow. 8...Bxc2 is very dangerous for Black, even after 9.Qxc2. I also have analysis of Gerard Welling, Stefan Bücker and with the necessary modesty, myself.
Alas 8...Bg6 is a rock solid pawn up.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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