Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 10
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BDG Ziegler Defense (Read 68885 times)
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #77 - 02/01/05 at 15:54:33
Post Tools
It seems to me that the closest thing to truth in the BDG is 1. d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5  (I know that there are ways to go, but why would Black forego this obvious developing move?)  6. Ne5 e6  7. g4 Bg6 (Why invite complications when you're a pawn up with no weaknesses?)  8. Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5.  Now unless he has something pretty concrete, I suggest that White has about half a pawn's worth of compensation for his pawn.  10. Bd3 looks dicey due to 10...Qxd5  11. Bxg6 Qxe5+  12. Be4 and now Black has 12...Bb4 as pointed out and analysed by Bonsai in the thread on the "Gunderam Defense" (which is what 5...Bf5 is called by BDG devotees).  Also there, I pointed out that the slower 10. Be3 meets with 10...Nbd7  11. Nxg6 hxg6 and Black's position is quite solid, for example, 12. 0-0-0 Bd6  13. Ne4 Bc7, which is how I won a game in a recent U.S. Absolute CC Championship.

These are not ideas that would be difficult for Black to find in speed chess, so I am left wondering where the BDG beef is.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #76 - 01/30/05 at 18:12:54
Post Tools
See the thing is, not even grandmasters know which variations are good, which are bad, and which are completely busted. When I played GM Henrik Danielsen last year he chose the Bogoljubow defence. Stupid as I was I refrained from playing 6.Bc4 because it has been busted (but what is the chance that he would know of that bust, probably he faces the BDG once a year). So instead I chose 6.Bf4, but of course he did not castle kingside into the Dragonkiller. Still I got a reasonable position and only lost due to later errors.

However, this is not the reason I gave up the BDG. The reason was that less good players tend to play more careful, and there is one line that is very careful which also happens to be Black's best defence. 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 and now what do you do?
5.fxe4 e5! is only equal and in a very boring way (McGrews articles on chesscafe where full of holes)5.Nxe4 Bf5 is a bad Caro-Kann,
5.Bc4 Bf5 is a bad version of the Vienna defence.

I could not break the Ziegler defence 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 or the Tartakower-Gunderam 5...Bf5 either. I have tried the "Alchemy variation" a few times in blitz. I think it works there but a 2h/40 against someone who knows how to defend - no way!

Using computer engines only makes things worse. They tend to find the "only" moves for Black that defend, while always trying to regain material for White which is most likely to yield a bad endgame.

Still, when I play blitz or meet someone rated below 1900 the BDG works fine.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lev D. Zilbermints
Guest


Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #75 - 01/30/05 at 17:30:37
Post Tools
First, I thought that the line was 5...Bf5 , not 5...c6 .
Secondly, I did not "recommend" the Alchemy Variation.
I merely suggested that you try it if you know the line better than I do. Third, I am not convinced that the Alchemy Variation is that great against 5...c6 , but am willing to reserve judgment in lieu of further results.
And last, against 5...c6 one might try A) 6 Bc4 trying to transpose to regular 5...Bf5 lines or B) 6 Bg5 . The latter I am not sure of... but have seen some games with it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10757
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #74 - 01/29/05 at 21:34:27
Post Tools
In this thread it became clear, that the Alchemy Variation is White's only chance after 5...c6.
<You need to focus more on the Alchemy Variation>
Why does LDZ recommend this, if he does not play it himself?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lev D. Zilbermints
Guest


Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #73 - 01/29/05 at 15:22:15
Post Tools
I do not play the Alchemy Variation to begin with. If you want to look at that line, go ahead. My preference is either 6 Ne5 or 6 Bc4 (after 5...Bf5) .
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Teyko
Full Member
***
Offline


Gambits Dammit

Posts: 247
Location: Scotland
Joined: 10/01/03
Gender: Male
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #72 - 01/26/05 at 21:04:05
Post Tools
I have to agree with MNB on this one Lev D. Zilbermints.
The variation that Markovich is talking about specifically is not covered very well in the BDG handbook. I have both and the games are not very convincing. THe DMC has given some variations that look much more promising and in fact are more concrete answers to his concerns.

  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10757
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #71 - 01/26/05 at 05:29:03
Post Tools
"Why don't you pick up a copy of Rev. Timothy Sawyer's Blackmar- Diemer Gambit Keybook II"
If the quality of (lack of) analysis and evaluation is the same as in Keybook I, you'd better save your money.
"The reason?"
Here we are interested in the truth about variations, not about tricking our opponents with some highly dubious play.
So it makes no sense, to make difference between "OTB" and "correspondence" analysis. BTW, I mainly play the latter.
LDZ might better reflect on the analysis on the Alchemy Variation provided at this site - at the moment it looks insufficient for White.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lev D. Zilbermints
Guest


Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #70 - 01/26/05 at 01:43:15
Post Tools
This is nonsense, guys. You keep talking about the Tartakower-Gunderan Defense, 5...Bf5 , as if it was something so special. Why don't you pick up a copy of Rev. Timothy Sawyer's Blackmar- Diemer Gambit Keybook II (Pickard & Son, Publishers 1999) in any decent bookstore? Barnes and Nobles? Or order it through the USCF catalogue?

All these lines can be easily found in old issues of Blackmar-Diemer Gambit World Magazine, 1983-1998.
You need to focus more on the Alchemy Variation and less on lines that are already well-known.

I must point out that all your analyses are great for correspondence chess, where you have DAYS to analyse. In over-the-board chess, it is a vastly different story.

So, when you analyze, specify if this is for correspondence or OTB play. The reason? Most players in OTB play  won't find a lot of these variations.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #69 - 12/20/04 at 14:45:09
Post Tools
Quote:
Markovich,

The name of that variation is the Tartakower-Gunderam, and if you think that Black has a chance in these lines you are sadly mistaken.

On this site, you are encouraged to give lines, if you can't or won't do that your posts will not be given much credence here.



I did give 5...Bf5 in the post you cite, and elsewhere on this site I have once or twice given 6. Ne5 e6  7. g4 Bg6  8. Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5 with the claim =+.  Black's knight is not so inactive on h5.  I played the Black side of this in the U.S. Absolute C.C. Champ. a few years back and had no trouble winning. 

I'm not sure that a line would matter very much even if I gave it, since it's just a chess game where White is a pawn down with a little compensation.   But I think I recall that in my game, play continued 10. Be3 Nd7.  That takes us to move 11.  Maybe those who uphold this gambit can show me how I am "sadly mistaken" about Black's chances here. 

"Tartakover-Gunderam," eh?  I think I'll stick with "bishop eff five."  Easier to say, and to remember.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Teyko
Full Member
***
Offline


Gambits Dammit

Posts: 247
Location: Scotland
Joined: 10/01/03
Gender: Male
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #68 - 12/18/04 at 09:28:07
Post Tools
Markovich,

The name of that variation is the Tartakower-Gunderam, and if you think that Black has a chance in these lines you are sadly mistaken.

On this site, you are encouraged to give lines, if you can't or won't do that your posts will not be given much credence here.

  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #67 - 12/17/04 at 23:58:15
Post Tools
Quote:
I am stunned!   Shocked  The variations look good...quite impressive!

I am again without a defense against the BDG.


Oh, dear me!  What to play against the DREAD Blackmar-Diemer?  Shall it be Ziegfield's Folly, or the foul-smelling Limburger?

For Pete's sake, just play 2...dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5 (I have no idea what BGD afficionadoes, who adorn every idea of Black's with a grandiose name, call this move).  Play chess.  You have a pawn and no weaknesses.  Maneuver, simplify, win. 

If 2. e4 is good, 2. c4 is crap.  Does anyone really believe that?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Teyko
Full Member
***
Offline


Gambits Dammit

Posts: 247
Location: Scotland
Joined: 10/01/03
Gender: Male
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #66 - 12/16/04 at 11:36:34
Post Tools
Yes Bonsai it does.
I have made a personal decision not to post anymore analysis on the board because it seems to me that it is unfair and not very prudent for Blackmar Diemar specialists and players to put all their hard work on the forums where anyone without a subscription can just pull it off and play.

I hope that perhaps GM Prie could oblige the Blackmar Diemar players here and have us send him he analysis were he can remark upon the finding in an update. In this way we can still present our analysis monthly and he would not have to find games.

Just email me Bonsai, and I will give you the moves and send you some pgn.

Teyko@mchsi.com
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #65 - 12/16/04 at 06:02:36
Post Tools
Quote:
These guys are the bomb, and by the way it has been established for almost a decade that 6.Bc4 is inferior because of Bf5.

We are reinventing the wheel guys. The Pape Attack in volume 52 and Stummer's attack in Volume 59 deserve attention.


What are those then? Not everyone has a BDG world cd lying around Wink.

Does the cd also offer analysis beyond what we have discussed here as to why 6.Bc4 is inferior?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Teyko
Full Member
***
Offline


Gambits Dammit

Posts: 247
Location: Scotland
Joined: 10/01/03
Gender: Male
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #64 - 12/15/04 at 23:56:37
Post Tools
I feel like a complete idiot. After having the Blackmar Diemar Gambit world cd for almost 6 months, I never thought to look at it seriously until now.

These guys are the bomb, and by the way it has been established for almost a decade that 6.Bc4 is inferior because of Bf5.

We are reinventing the wheel guys. The Pape Attack in volume 52 and Stummer's attack in Volume 59 deserve attention.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Teyko
Full Member
***
Offline


Gambits Dammit

Posts: 247
Location: Scotland
Joined: 10/01/03
Gender: Male
Re: BDG Ziegler Defense
Reply #63 - 12/15/04 at 18:09:35
Post Tools
I have run into the same problem in the Bogo, but I believe that I have found a line that gives a small advantage because of the compromised pawn structure of Black, and you get a pawn back. Email me at Teyko@mchsi.com and we can discuss it.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 10
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo