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Re: chigorin 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3
Reply #4 - 06/04/04 at 16:10:37
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i think you are being a little pessimistic about blacks chances in these lines feb  Smiley 
in the 6..Rb8 line 7Bf4 Nf6 seems ok for black to me. white seems to have a small advantage but not a lot more and in the line you mentioned against bonsais suggestion of 6...Bb4 7Ne5 Nxd4 8Qd1 Nc6! 9Nxg4 h5 to be followed by d4 also looks ok for black
  
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feb
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Re: chigorin 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3
Reply #3 - 06/03/04 at 08:08:53
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Thanks guys for thinking along. I agree that 6...Bxf3 does not look good. I also think Black should improve here, as the first 5 moves follow the main line. 

Regarding 6...Rb8, it solves some of the short-term problems but neglects developement. One line could go as 6...Rb8 7.Bf4 (probably not even the strongest) Bxf3 (7...Nf6 8.e3; 7...Bb4 8.Ne5) 8.exf3 Bd6 (8...Nf6 9.0-0-0 Be7 10.h4) 9.Bxd6 Qxd6 10.Qxd5 Qe7+ 11.Qe4 (11.Be2) 11...Nxd4 12.0-0-0 c5 13.Nb5, but Black has developement problems after other continuations too.

Regarding 6...Bb4 7.Ne5 Bxc3+ [7...Nxd4 8.Qd1 looks clearly better for White] 8.Qxc3 Nxe5 9.dxe5, and Black has dark-square problems (Qg3 is strong). With Fritz8, I am not even getting close to near equality.

This problem for Black seems really tough, certainly to me with little experience on closed games. Or am I just too pessimistic about Black's possibilities? What would you recommend?
  
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Re: chigorin 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3
Reply #2 - 06/03/04 at 02:39:39
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I also get the feeling that 6...Bxf3 might not be the best move for black (although it's been played in 4 out of 5 games I've found). Another alternative might be 6...Bb4, which develops and takes pressure off the d5 pawn.
  
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Re: chigorin 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3
Reply #1 - 06/01/04 at 18:50:54
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This is an interesting point feb and one which authors of books on the Chigorin have heretofore failed to mention. At first I thought that Black would be fine after 9... Qe7+ to be followed by Qb4 when the queens will come off but on closer inspection with Fritz this line does in fact seem good for white. Maybe black is better off avoiding the line altogether and simply playing  6...Rb8
  
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chigorin 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3
05/25/04 at 05:46:31
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I have just started to study the Chigorin QGD in detail, when I noticed the following: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 [according to Bronznik, the best move, and the only reasonable alternative 4...Bxf3 gives White the initiative] 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Qb3 Bxf3 7.exf3 Nxd4 has been played a number of times at GM level (notably by Lewitt as White). And here instead of 8.Qxb7 Rb8 9.Qa6 c6!, which is satisfactory for Black, fritz8 gives 8.Qa4+! Nc6 9.Ba6! Qe7+ 10.Kf1, when White seems to have a reasonable advantage. Strange, because Black's play looks so natural.

I assume Black needs an improvement somewhere. As I am new to closed openings (1.d4 d5), I could use your suggestions. What do you think?
  
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