Why not? What's wrong with 3 ...dxe4 here? -- I can't see any problem for Black.

Gueler:

Yes, you are absolutely right.  There was a thread in the flank openings forum on the problems associated with the 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 move order with the idea of playing a delayed Lisitsin Gambit a while back.  See:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1098049385/0#0.

After looking at this line some more, I ultimately came to the conclusion that it didn't make practical sense to play the Dutch from the 1.Nf3 f5 move order, because the Lisitsin Gambit Deferred promised White good chances of an edge and was very easy to learn.

The Dutch of course is very playable against a 1.c4 move order, although there are still problems with trying to get to a Stonewall from there if White knows the tricks.

I actually quite liked the main line Stonewall positions for Black.  The problem was getting to them with so many players using 1.Nf3 or English move orders to get to 1.d4 openings these days.  And, like I noted above, move order issues after 1.Nf3 became somewhat problematic for me.    

I have now moved away from the Dutch towards the QGA as a second defense to 1.d4.  Although you can't force the QGA against 1.Nf3 either, the move order issues are much less problematic because after 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 dxc4 White has a choice of transposing into mainline QGA systems with 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bxc4 e6 5.d4 c5 etc., or playing 3.Na3, 3.e4, or 3.Qa4+, all of which are, IMO, toothless systems against each which Black has a choice among equalizing lines.

Perhaps most importantly, after 1.Nf3 d5 2.d3 Nf6, the Tennison Gambit Deferred with 3.e4? is not nearly as good as the Lisitsin Gambit Deferred.

1. Nf3, f5 2. c4, Nf6 3. g3, e6 4. Bg2, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. d3 (After 6. d4 a normal stonewall setup will be reached with 6.., c6)

Now black should not play 6.., c6 due to 7. Nc3+/= but choose between

..., dc4: 7. dc4:, Nc6 is interesting and I tested it with success in some games
.., Nc6 with very interesting possibilities
.., Na6 looks extravagant but leads to interesting play because 7. e4?!, fe4: 8. de4:, de4: 9. Qb3+, Kh8 10. Ng5, Nc5 11. Nf7+:?, Rf7: 12. Qf7:, Be6 -+ fails

Geof,

In the previous replies to your question, nobody considered 2. d3. This has been discussed a bit in the Leningrad circles on this forum. Have you considered what to play in this case? So far, black isn't doing too well in this line. If you don't find a satisfactory answer to 2. d3, than your original question might be academic. What do you think?

lnn2 wrote on 11/21/05 at 06:34:05:


I've run across something similar a couple times as Black, something like :  1.  d4 e6 2. g3 f5 3. Bg2 Nf6 4. Nf3 d5 5. Bf4, then I play ...Bd6 anyway.  The idea is that if White plays Bxd6, then Black captures ...cxd6 and gets a useful pawn that covers his usual weak-square on e5.  If White doesn't take, then Black will play 6...Bxf4, 7. gxf4, and you're back in a standard line of the Stonewall.  White has the weird-looking 6. Be5, but really, what the heck's that bishop doing on e5?  

The difference between my line and yours is that White hasn't play c4 yet in mine.  With the White pawn on c4 that early I wouldn't usually enter a Stonewall, so I haven't got any experience there.  

It's irritating that Aagard's book doesn't talk about this line, but one of the problems with that book is that it's narrowly focused on the mainline Stonewall.  132 pages out of 159 are spent on it.

slates: yes i really ought to get his stonewall book, Meeting 1. d4 was a solid effort. 

But now am curious to know if he answers the question i just posted! Help anyone?!

i don't have aagaard's book,  but what if White plays Bf4 immediately after Black plays d5 (something like 1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Bf4) then Black can't get a modern stonewall can he?!  ???

OK, if 1 Nf3 f5 2 c4 e6 3 g3 Nf6 4 Bg2 d5 5 00 c6 6 d3 is already good for White (or at least is already White's idea) then how does this move order prevent the Modern Stonewall any more than it prevents the Classical (reverting to Geof S's original dilemma)?

After 1 d4 f5 2 Nf3 e6 3 g3 Nf6 c4 d5 5 b3 (a slightly odd move order to my eye) can Black not get in ...Bd6 and Qe7 by relying on the ...Qa5+ trick, thus 5...c6 6 Bg2 Bd6 7 00 Qe7? But if 4 Bg2 d5 5 b3 c6 6 00 I guess White will force Ba3. According to Kramnik (in Dvoretsky's Positional Play) the whole Ba3xd6 plan is ineffective anyway unless Black has prematurely castled (and even then he doesn't think it's all that) - Black goes ...b6...Bb7...Qxd6....Nbd7 and equalises with an appropriate ...c5, or something like that.