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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Scandinavian 9...Qxf6 (Read 23608 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #23 - 10/30/10 at 01:15:43
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No, i haven't played it and i have only spent half an hour or less analysing it. My intuition says that someting is wrong with that but i don't know what exactly yet. I have used the Scandinavian from time to time ut what made me stop playing it was a comment for a Greek expert that the lines of the Scandinavian that are played nw are almost busted. If fact that was also the comment of Shirov after playing GM Papaioannou : "If you played gainst me the Scandinavian i would have crashed you!" Only a recent idea, played by Papaioannou with Bb4+Bxc4+Nc6 seems interesting to me
  
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BabySnake
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #22 - 10/21/10 at 13:52:23
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/02/10 at 18:22:14:
11...Be7 is a rare idea but it seems logical to me. After 12.Kb1 (or any other non-threatening move) Black plays 12...Qg6 not fearing the pin on the 'e' file.

Now 11...Be7 12.Bg5 (this seems the only try for the advantage) 12...Qg6 13.Bxe7 Kxe7 14.d5?! (the only move tried in practice) 14...cxd5 15.Bxd5 (15.Rxd5? Nb6 and Black is better) 15...Bxc2 with unclear complications but Black looks OK at least.

Critical is 14.Kb1 (14.h3 Rhd8! is best imo) 14...Rhd8! 15.Nh4 (the only dangerous try again) 15...Qf6 16.Nxf5 Qxf5 17.d5 cxd5 18.Bxd5 Nc5! 19.Bf3 Rac8! and Black is equal! So, 11...Be7 may be a new start for the ...Qxf6 variation?


I've been looking at this myself and did some brief analysis last night. Seems that 11...Be7 is indeed playable but this has hardly had any practical tests (only 3 games in my database, the most recent from 2008 I think). I am surprised this has not been properly tested.

Ametanoitos: Have you played this yourself?

Is this mentioned in Bauer's new book at all? I am waiting for my copy....
  
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #21 - 09/04/10 at 09:21:33
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Dzambus wrote on 09/03/10 at 09:19:38:
Hi again, one more question in the line 11...Nb6 12.Bg5 Qg6 13.h4 , namely: 13...Be7!? instead of 13...h6

Does anybody know a forced win for White after this move?


1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5.
Nf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. Bd2 e6 8. Nd5 Qd8 9. Nxf6+ Qxf6 10. Qe2 Nd7 11. O-O-O Nb6
12. Bg5 Qg6 13. h4 Be7 14. Bxe7 Kxe7 15. Ne5
15. Bd3 Rhd8 16. Ne5 Qf6 17. Bxf5 Qxf5 18.
Qe3 Nd5 19. Qa3+ Ke8 20. Kb1 a5 21. h5 Nb4 22. Qb3 c5 23. h6 gxh6 24. Qa4+ Kf8
25. g4 Qf4 26. Nd7+ Ke7 27. Nb6) 
15. h5 Qh6+ 16. Kb1 Bg4 17. Bb3 Rhe8 18. Rh4 Bxf3 19. gxf3 a5 20. a3 a4 21. Ba2
Kf8 22. Rg1) 15... Qxg2 16. Rhg1 Qh2 17. Bd3 Qf4+ 18. Kb1 Rhg8 19.
Bxf5 Qxf5 20. Rg5 Qf4 21. Rg4 Qf5 22. Rdg1 g6 23. Qe3 Nd5 24. Qa3+ Ke8 25. f3
Rd8 26. Re1 a6 27. Qb3 

In all lines white is better and has a wide choice of possibilities, black is definitely under heavy pressure in the 11. ... Nb6 line.

  
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Dzambus
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #20 - 09/03/10 at 09:19:38
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Hi again, one more question in the line 11...Nb6 12.Bg5 Qg6 13.h4 , namely: 13...Be7!? instead of 13...h6

Does anybody know a forced win for White after this move?
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #19 - 09/02/10 at 19:44:47
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Ametanoitos wrote on 09/02/10 at 18:22:14:


Critical is 14.Kb1 (14.h3 Rhd8! is best imo) 14...Rhd8! 15.Nh4 (the only dangerous try again) 15...Qf6 16.Nxf5 Qxf5 17.d5 cxd5 18.Bxd5 Nc5! 19.Bf3 Rac8! and Black is equal! So, 11...Be7 may be a new start for the ...Qxf6 variation?

15.h4 is another idea, then it´s not clear how to answer;
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #18 - 09/02/10 at 18:22:14
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11...Be7 is a rare idea but it seems logical to me. After 12.Kb1 (or any other non-threatening move) Black plays 12...Qg6 not fearing the pin on the 'e' file.

Now 11...Be7 12.Bg5 (this seems the only try for the advantage) 12...Qg6 13.Bxe7 Kxe7 14.d5?! (the only move tried in practice) 14...cxd5 15.Bxd5 (15.Rxd5? Nb6 and Black is better) 15...Bxc2 with unclear complications but Black looks OK at least.

Critical is 14.Kb1 (14.h3 Rhd8! is best imo) 14...Rhd8! 15.Nh4 (the only dangerous try again) 15...Qf6 16.Nxf5 Qxf5 17.d5 cxd5 18.Bxd5 Nc5! 19.Bf3 Rac8! and Black is equal! So, 11...Be7 may be a new start for the ...Qxf6 variation?
  
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Dzambus
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #17 - 09/02/10 at 08:32:50
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gewgaw wrote on 09/02/10 at 08:04:23:
 
but 11. ... Be7 seems still alive.


Considering 11...Be7 line, my first impression is 12.Bg5 Qg6 13.B:e7 K:e7 14.Kb1 should be somewhat better for White, but I will look for more.
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #16 - 09/02/10 at 08:04:23
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11- .... Nb6 is busted:
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5.
Nf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. Bd2 e6 8. Nd5 Qd8 9. Nxf6+ Qxf6 10. Qe2 Nd7 11. O-O-O Nb6
12. Bg5 Qg6 13. h4 h6 14. Ne5 Qh7 15. d5
hxg5 15... Bb4 16. dxc6 bxc6 17. Bf4 O-O
18. g4 Nd5 19. Bxd5 exd5 20. gxf5 Qxf5 21. Qg4 Qxg4 22. Nxg4 Rfe8 23. Rhg1 Kh7
24. Ne5 Bd6 25. Rde1 Rac8 26. Bg3 f6 27. Nd3 Bxg3 28. fxg3 Kg6 {2.29/16}) 15... Nxc4 16. dxc6 b5 17. c7 Bd6 18. Nxc4
bxc4 19. Rxd6 hxg5 20. Qd2 Qh5 21. Rd8+ Ke7 22. Rd1 Qxd1+ 23. Qxd1 Rhxd8 24.
cxd8=Q+ Rxd8 25. Qh5 gxh4 26. Qg5+ Ke8 27. Qxg7 Be4 28. f3 Bd5 29. Qh7 h3 30.
Qxh3 a5 {2.39/16}) 15... Rc8 16. dxc6 bxc6
17. Bb5 f6 18. Bxc6+ Rxc6 19. Nxc6 hxg5 20. Qa6 {2.68/16}) 16. dxc6 bxc6 17.
Bb5 Be7 18. Bxc6+ Kf8 19. Bxa8 gxh4 20. Bc6 Qh6+ 21. Kb1 g5 22. Be4 Kg7 23.
Bxf5 exf5 24. Nc6 Qxc6 25. Qxe7 Qf6 26. Qxa7 f4 27. b3 Re8 28. Qc7 Re6 29. Rh3

in all lines clear advantage for white; but 11. ... Be7 seems still alive.
  
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #15 - 09/02/10 at 07:52:32
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I think the line with 13.h4! is very strong, but after 13...h6 14.Ne5 Qh7 15.d5 hxg5 there have to follow 16.dxc6 instead of 16.dxe6. Then after 16...bxc6 17.Bb5! imo White has a clear advantage.
  
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #14 - 09/02/10 at 07:05:22
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gewgaw wrote on 08/31/10 at 17:14:08:
My thoughts about 11. ...Be7 and 11. ...Nb6:

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5.
Nf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. Bd2 e6 8. Nd5 Qd8 9. Nxf6+ Qxf6 10. Qe2 Nd7 11. O-O-O Be7
(11... Nb6 12. Bg5 Qg6 13. h4 h6 14. Ne5 Qh7 15. d5 hxg5 16. dxe6 fxe6 17. g4
Bxc2 18. Bxe6 unclear; +-) 12. Bg5 Qg6 13. Bxe7 Kxe7 14. h3 b5 15. Bb3 Rhc8 16. g4 Be4
17. Rhe1 Bd5 18. Ne5 Nxe5 19. dxe5 a5 20. c3 Bxb3 21. axb3 a4 22. b4 Qg5+ 23.
Kb1 seems okay for black.


Hi,
I am not quite sure if I remember correctly, but probably in this line:

11...Nb6 12.Bg5 Qg6 and now not 13.h4 but Fressinet's 13.d5! is quite strong. Play is rather complicated, but in the end White has advantage.
  
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #13 - 08/31/10 at 17:14:08
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My thoughts about 11. ...Be7 and 11. ...Nb6:

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5.
Nf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. Bd2 e6 8. Nd5 Qd8 9. Nxf6+ Qxf6 10. Qe2 Nd7 11. O-O-O Be7
(11... Nb6 12. Bg5 Qg6 13. h4 h6 14. Ne5 Qh7 15. d5 hxg5 16. dxe6 fxe6 17. g4
Bxc2 18. Bxe6 unclear; +-) 12. Bg5 Qg6 13. Bxe7 Kxe7 14. h3 b5 15. Bb3 Rhc8 16. g4 Be4
17. Rhe1 Bd5 18. Ne5 Nxe5 19. dxe5 a5 20. c3 Bxb3 21. axb3 a4 22. b4 Qg5+ 23.
Kb1 seems okay for black.

  
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Michel Barbaut
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #12 - 08/30/10 at 20:43:43
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"I guess GM Bauer's approach in his upcoming book would be to go for Bg4 instead of Bf5 lines (or so it seems looking at his own games)."

If I'm good remembering (and I think so) Bauer's approach is with 9...gxf6 ... I've read somewhere, maybe on QC blog ... let's wait a few months  Angry
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #11 - 08/30/10 at 14:28:43
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1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bd2 e6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.Qe2 Nd7 11.O-O-O Bg4 12.d5 Bxf3 13.gxf3 cxd5 14.Bxd5 O-O-O 15.Be4 

after this position black has no winning chances at all, what about 11. .... Be7 or Nb6 - are these two moves refutated?

  
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #10 - 08/30/10 at 08:19:34
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midknightblue wrote on 08/29/10 at 23:48:16:
Hello.  I could swear I read an article one time where Prie acknowledged that someone had shown him- after his previous NIC articles saying otherwise - that the variation with Qxf6 does not work after all.  I am trying to find the analysis, but can't seem to find it anywhere.  He had sort of finally agreed that gxf6 was necessary as I recall.

You probably mean ChessBase magazine #124 (June 2008).
  
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Re: Scandinavian 9...Qxf6
Reply #9 - 08/30/10 at 07:43:22
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midknightblue wrote on 08/29/10 at 23:48:16:
Hello.  I could swear I read an article one time where Prie acknowledged that someone had shown him- after his previous NIC articles saying otherwise - that the variation with Qxf6 does not work after all.  I am trying to find the analysis, but can't seem to find it anywhere.  He had sort of finally agreed that gxf6 was necessary as I recall.

I had not seen it. In another thread (you may be able to find it), he did express some confidence in the Qe5 line (at least for holding, maybe not as a winning try). However that was a few years back.

Since approximately 2007 to October last year I can only find gxf6 games by him, before that it was a mix of gxf6 and Qxf6.

Most recently he has tried 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bf5 6. Bc4 e6 7. Bd2 Bb4, presumably to avoid the line, but at least the results do not seem to have been great.

I guess GM Bauer's approach in his upcoming book would be to go for Bg4 instead of Bf5 lines (or so it seems looking at his own games).
  
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