Normal Topic Fun opening (Read 5840 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Fun opening
Reply #6 - 07/09/04 at 09:24:56
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I think Black's opening play was fine.  With colors reversed, Nunn calls 6.Bd3 "a harmless attempt to avoid the main line", but doesn't show it too be bad either.  I think White's extra a3 move is fairly insignificant and it's safe to say the position is equal.
  
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Re: Fun opening
Reply #5 - 07/07/04 at 07:01:29
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Well, the a3-variation in the 4-knights. Just played at the Dutch Women Championships between Peng - Van Weersel (Peng is a GM and the strongest candidate, so an important game):

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. a3 d5 5. Bb5 d4 6. Ne2 Bd6 7. d3 O-O 8. O-O Ne7 9. Bc4 Ng6 10. Ng3 Be6 11. Bxe6 fxe6 12. c3 c5 13. Qb3 Qd7 14. Bd2 Rae8 15. Rae1 Kh8 16. a4 Ng8 17. Ng5 h6 18. Nh3 Rf7 19. cxd4 cxd4 20. f3 N8e7 21. Rc1 Nc6 22. Ne2 Ref8 23. a5 a6 24. Ra1 Qe7 25. Kh1 Rf6 26. Be1 Bb4 27. Ra4 Bxe1 28. Rxe1 Nh4 29. Ng3 Qf7 30. Qd1 Qc7 31. Qd2 Rc8 32. Rc1 Qd7 33. Rac4 Rff8 34. Rc5 Ng6 35. Ne2 Na7 36. Qb4 Rxc5 37. Qxc5 Nc6 38. f4 exf4 39. Nhxf4 Nge7 40. h3 g5 41. Nh5 Rf2 42. Re1 Ng6 43. Kg1 Qf7 44. Nxd4 Nh4 45. Nxc6 Rxg2+ 46. Kh1 bxc6 47. Qe5+ Kh7 48. Nf6+ Kg6 49. Rf1 Re2 50. Qg3 Rg2 51. Qb8 Rd2 52. Qg3 Rg2 1/2-1/2

Have they improvised in this game, or how long was it theory? I am trying to figure out how I should respond to a3 when I am Black, as the 4-knights is in my Black repertoire. Black's opening play didn't look too bad to me, and she played it fast which probably means that she had seen it before.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Fun opening
Reply #4 - 06/30/04 at 21:01:31
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First of all, I mistakenly said that McGrew's articles appeared in his Chesscafe column "Gambit Cartel".  In fact they appeared under the "Skittles" section at that site.  Go to http://www.chesscafe.com/archives/skittarch.htm and look under Giuoco Fortissimo: The Rousseau Gambit by Tim McGrew, parts I and II.  That should give you a very good idea of how to play 3.a3 Bc5 4.f4 as White (Most of the time a3 is of no use whatsoever.  It just prevents the most dangerous variation.)

I can't really remember what is best for Black after 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 (4...c6!?) 5.Qh5.  There have been 2 whole books devoted to this line from the Black side and I'm sure you'll find at least a footnote in NCO.  I'm pretty sure a3 isn't always useful.  I believe it is supposed to eliminate the most dangerous tries (actually I haven't looked at this in some time, if someone were to actually try this then I'd suggest they look into the theory in more detail).

After 3.a3 Nc6, Myers recommended 4.Nf3 (as you suggested) answering 4...d5 with 5.Bb5 I think (I can't find my copy of his book!).  I remember also looking at 5.Nxe5!? (see "101 Chess Opening Surprises" for some analysis with colors reversed).

I only used this line in "3 0" games on ICC.  I had never planned to use it as a serious tournament weapon I don't suggest anyone else does either!  I do remember having some fun trying to find the best ways to use the extra move a3 (it's rarely harmful).  For example my move versus the reversed Ruy Lopez try was very effective but you'll have to find that for yourself.
  
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feb
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Re: Fun opening
Reply #3 - 06/30/04 at 18:33:29
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After 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.a3 Bc5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 Bd6 7.dxe5 Bxe5, Fritz likes 8.Nb5!?. Then 8...a6 [8...c6 is perhaps better] 9.f4 Bxb2 10.Bxb2 axb5 gives White interesting play with the bishop pair, but it is essential that a3 prevents any Qe7 followed by Qb4+ ideas.

I agree with Glenn on 4.d4 and 5.d4, although I should add that 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 is a recommended line for White in two different books (by Gufeld and by Kallai, if I recall correctly). It was a long time ago, but I remember that I could not prove anything significant for White. Play can easily become sharp though. But what's going on in the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.a3 Bc5 4.f4 d5?

I have to admit that I would have fallen for the somewhat uncomfortable 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Qh5, especially in blitz. Have you figured out what Black should do after 5.Qh5? 

ps. What have you been planning for White after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.a3 Nc6? 4.Nf3 perhaps?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Fun opening
Reply #2 - 06/30/04 at 16:24:21
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LOL!  You really need to learn how to erase better.  Grin

A reversed 2 knights defence is also what Myers recommended.  I'd agree that after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.a3 Bc5 4.Nf3, that 4...d6 is the best move (4...Nc6 5.Nxe5 is usually rated equal with colors reversed but I always felt more comfortable being the one to take the pawn and play d4, or ...d5 rather).

The line that bothered me was 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bc4 (I think White has a hard time proving an advantage after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4, so I really doubt if 5.d4 is anything special.) 5...Nc6 6.d3 Be6 when it seems that having a pawn on a3 is harmful.  Well that's the way I felt all those years ago.  Let me know if you see something decent for White here.

Of course I keep pretending that your 4.Nf3 doesn't fight for the advantage and 4.f4 does.  That's certainly not the case.  I do think it has or more dynamic quality to it though (some detractors might say crazy instead of dynamic  Tongue ).   

Oh, and McGrews analysis indicated that White's strongest line (after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5? 4.d4! fxe4 5.Nxe5! d5!?) was 6.Bb5 which is obviously bad here (6...Bb4 of course).

I think Black's best might be the simple 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.a3 Bc5 4.f4 d6! when he may well be better but see McGrews article which shows things aren't easy.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Fun opening
Reply #1 - 06/30/04 at 09:02:31
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It seems to me that a good way to respond to 3...Bc5 there is to play a "Two Knights' Attack" (i.e. a Two Knights' Defence Reversed) with 4.Nf3.

In the Two Knights proper, the main line runs 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+.  Obviously, with colours reversed and a pawn on a3, this line would not be available to Black.

Also, there is the option of entering much improved versions of the Fritz Variation (5...Nd4) or the Ulvestad Variation (5...b5) where in both cases it is often an issue that Black has an undefended pawn on b5.

All in all, Black would probably be best advised to meet 4.Nf3 with the quiet 4...d6, when White can try the sharp 5.d4, or just play a reversed Giuoco Piano with 5.Bc4, when it may well prove useful that he has a2 available to his bishop (and that he has control over the b4 square).

But I digress - I wouldn't want to distract attention away from Glenn's crazy interesting idea ...  Wink

Perhaps there are some variations in Tim McGrew's analysis where it can be shown that a2-a3 (or, rather, ...a7-a6) would have been a useful move?
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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Glenn Snow
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Fun opening
06/30/04 at 07:01:18
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This suggestion is intended more for  blitz or skittles use.  Although I suppose it could be used as an occoasional surprise weapon.  I'm sure most of you follow Tim McGrew's Chesscafe article about Gambits.  If so you will remember a series of articles on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5.  Eventually he concluded that theoretically it wasn't very good but did have some practical sting.  I'm proposing that White try this same gambit via 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.a3 Bc5 4.f4!?.  Many years ago Hugh Myers wrote a book titled, "Reversed King's Pawns: Mengarini's Opening".  The entire book was devoted to 3.a3.  The main idea being 3...d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Qh5! and Black is unable to respond at any time with ...Nb4.  I was never satisfied with his (Myers) solution to 3...Bc5 and put the opening on the shelf for many years.  I followed the McGrew articles with interest but didn't think of it as a serious opening.  After 1.e5 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5 4.d4! fxe4 5.Nxe5 d5 6.Bb5 Black is in trouble if White knows what he's doing.  Somewhere along the way it occurred to me that I could try some of the Myers' suggestions but try 4.f4 against 3...Bc5 without allowing ...Bb4.  Of course it's nothing your going to see a respectable GM playing but it could throw off the average club player perhaps. Let me know if you try it out.   Grin
« Last Edit: 06/30/04 at 08:54:53 by alumbrado »  
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