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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C02:French Adv.,modern variation,6...c4 vs 6...Nh6 (Read 9590 times)
Uberdecker
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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #12 - 03/29/06 at 15:11:24
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I back you fully Keano! The Advance French is one of things I most happily face, due to 6. a3 c4. Black plugs the queenside shut with ...Ktb3 and ...Ba4, castling long and waiting for the right moment to activate his "bad bishop" via -c2. Often Black can answer f4 with ...f5. If White takes e.p. Black receives a massive centre and the half-open g-file and if not, it's possible to quietly build up an attack with ...h6 and ...g5.
Of course, I'm painting a deliberately biased and rosy picture for Black and of course White has many resources, but the point is that the positional trumps are all Black's and White must react very energetically to avoid being squeezed to death!
  
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Keano
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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #11 - 03/29/06 at 12:57:09
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Quote:
whilst otherwise White can build a slow but unstoppable pawn attack on the kingside using the space advantage


If it were that simple the advance would be more popular - truth is Black has plenty of resources in this line, it is a very tricky line - White often pushes his pawns up on the kingside only to find his own king in trouble as Black usually goes 0-0-0. Added to this there is the standard queenside infiltration maneouvres.
Interestingly Sveshnikov himself in a recent New in chess says that ...c4 is Blacks best move "with a complicated game" but adds that the blocked positions are not to everybodys taste, which is certainly true.
  
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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #10 - 03/29/06 at 12:41:32
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Lobachevsky wrote on 07/01/04 at 04:21:43:
In the modern varation of the French advance
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 d5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. a3
it seems the top players have moved away from 6...c4 in favour of 6...Nh6.

If I remember correcly, Jan Timman commented a game in NIC magazine last year where his comment to 6...Nh6 was something like "Earlier 6...c4 was played but practice has shown that this is somewhat favourable for white".

In my experience, blacks locks down the b-pawn with moves like Na5, Bd7 and possibly Ba4 and it is hard for white to generate counter play on the king's side.

Any comments on this? If you play this variation as white, what are your plans against 6...c4? If you play this variation as black, do you choose 6...c4 or 6...Nh6?


The statistics for 2005-6 show 6...Nh6 and 6...a5 scoring much better than 6...c4. Nevertheless, 6...c4 has been played recently by strong players such as Lputian, Eingorn and Timman.

Several ELO 2200+ French Advance specialists whom I have asked about this say that they much prefer to face 6...c4, since in this line a well-prepared White can play for a win with very little risk of losing. Apparently White can gain a clear edge against the old Uhlmann recipe of combining ...c4 with ...f6 by opening the position with b3, whilst otherwise White can build a slow but unstoppable pawn attack on the kingside using the space advantage.

Perhaps the long-awaited English and German editions by Edition Olms of Sveshnikov's book on the Advanced French (already available in Russian) will shed light on these issues.
  
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Keano
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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #9 - 03/27/06 at 10:34:00
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Yes I agree delaying ...f6 is a very interesting way for Black to play in this ....c4 line. You need to have a certain mindset to play these blocked pawn chain positions but they are playable although theoretically maybe White is a tiny bit better there is plenty of opportunity for the better player to win.

It is an interesting decision which line to play as Black.
  
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Klick
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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #8 - 12/29/04 at 19:08:37
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Is it not just better to wait with moving the f-pawn until later and go for 8...Na5? I`ve had a look at some of the games arising and black seems to have many viable plans regarding piece-development ( in the Nh6 lines, play seems more forced). Bareev has in some games let the f-pawn stay at home, and played Ne7-c8-b6 and bishop a4. This is interesting. However, to me it seems tempting to play f7-f5, when if white captures exf, black gets his fair share of play in the center.

Any takers?
  

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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #7 - 12/13/04 at 02:47:28
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Yes, Klick I do know about the game. Don't you think Vallin missed the right move? After 8.Nh4!? g6 9.f4 fxe5 10.fxe5 Bg7?? and  falling for the eventual book trap. Why not 10.fxe5 Nh6!? The idea is to strong-point d6 with the Knight going to f7 or f5 and to encourage the Bxc4 sac . The knight moving twice for Black is justified.  White must eventually move his Knight. Now, Black has the option of moving the bishop to three squares. If Black prevents the c4 sac, the position looks equal with lots of play for both sides.

I also know that published games for 8.Nh4 is tremendous for White, but I just don't see an outright refutation for White.

Finally in caveat to Klicks comment about 6....Nh6, you miss a move you lose.  The true French player will take the backward pawn at e6 but not in conjunction with the doubled h pawns.
  
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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #6 - 12/12/04 at 21:29:56
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Did the game Dvoirys-Vallin miss your attention ???  7.Nbd2 f6!? 8.Nh4! g6 9.f4, search in c02 via ChessPub.   I am a pretty ignorant guy: why cannot white continue with Nh4 when black plays f6, regardless of the variation, planning to bolster the center with f4?


I played the following game on ICC today:
[Event "ICC 3 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.12.12"]
[Opening "French: advance variation"]
[ECO "C02"]
[NIC "FR.03"]
[Time "10:16:24"]
[TimeControl "180+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Qb6 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. a3 c4 7. Nbd2 Na5 8. Be2
Ne7 9. O-O Bd7 10. Re1 Qc7 11. Nf1 Nc8 12. Bf4 f5 13. Ne3 Nb6 14. h4 Ba4 15.
Qb1 Nb3 16. Ra2 Be7 17. g4 fxg4 18. Nxg4 O-O-O 19. Nd2 Rdf8 20. Be3 Na5 21.
Ra1 Bxh4 22. Bd1 Be8 23. Nf3 Qe7 24. Qc2 Nb3 25. Rb1 h5 26. Ngh2 g5 27. Nxh4
gxh4 28. Kh1 Rhg8 29. Qe2 Bg6 30. Bxb3 cxb3 31. Rbc1 Be4+ 32. f3 Bf5 33. Rg1
Rg3 34. Bf2 Rfg8 35. Bxg3 hxg3 36. Nf1 Qh4+ 37. Kg2 Qh3# {White checkmated}
0-1

A silly little 3 0 game.

Personally I prefer 6...c4 because I then get to play with a locked pawn-structure.  6...c4 leads to a more "true" french game!

It also seems to me that Black in the critical Nh6-lines needs to find some accurate moves ...
  

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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #5 - 12/12/04 at 20:37:15
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Why not 6...Nh6 over 6...c4, as the first leads to dynamic equality?
  

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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #4 - 12/12/04 at 13:49:33
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This is one of the few times I disagree with IM Watson.  The 6....c4 line is dynamic. Following in the footsteps of the French Defense icon, GM Uhulmann, an early f6 should be played. 7.Nbd2 f6/7.Be2 f6 and 7.g3 f6.  The critical line is 7.Nbd2 f6 8.Be2,fxe5 9.Nxe5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Bc5 and White is slightly better.(NCO).

Instead of Bishop move I believe Qc7 should be played.  This move attacks the e5, gives Bishop an escape square at b6 and still maintains options of playing the knight to h6 and finally, if Bishop checks another option of playing the bishop to g7.

With the current theory showing other White moves being equal, why not 6....c4 over 6...Nh6?
  
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Geof Strayer
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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #3 - 07/15/04 at 01:19:24
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I think this is a really interesting question, and the answer probably depends on your personal preference, although I do have a move order comment to make.  Watson chooses 6...Nh6 as his main recommendation in Play the French (3rd ed.), saying that 6...c4 is holding up well but is less flexible.  Psakhis looks at both 6...c4 and 6...Nh6 (among other sixth moves) and seems to think both moves are in good shape theoretically.

My move order comment is this: if you want to play Pc5-c4 as Black after Pa2-a3 in the Advance Variation, it is possibly more accurate to avoid/delay Qd8-b6 and play Bd7:  that is, 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3 c4 is better than the position you have reached with the Q on b6 rather than the B on d7:

           "Incidentally, I think this way of playing [i.e.,
            responding to 6.a3 with 6...c4] is better after
            5...Bd7 than after 5...Qb6, since the b6-square
            remains free for occupation by the king's knight.
            This will greatly facilitate Black's ideal of
            establishing his bishop on a4."  - Psakhis

I actually really like the c4 move in the 5...Bd7 variation, as does Psakhis, who calls it "my favorite move."  (The more I look at the Psakhis trilogy on the French the more I like it.  There are many insights such as the one quoted above hidden in the notes.)  The center pawns are very static, the board is "cut in half" with Black and White castling on opposite sides, and the games in this line often feature slow buildups by Black and White on the sides that they castle.  In this line the really sharp tactics tend to arise later in the game after a period of prolonged manoevering.  This to me is a "classic" French position, one which is surprisingly rich in ideas (the slow but wonderful Bc8-d7-a4-c2-g6 manoever is just one such idea).  Black's play is somewhat dogmatic but very principled also.  In this line,  strategic understanding is probably the most important factor in your success.

Of course, the 5...Qb6 and 6...Nh6 line is also perfectly respectable, leading to a position which seems somewhat more tactical and dynamic (although not necessarily more interesting, there are some really great games in the 5...Bd7 6.a3 c4 line!).  So I guess it is really all a matter of taste in the end.   Undecided

      -Geof
  
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Lobachevsky
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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #2 - 07/01/04 at 09:29:47
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I agree and think 6...Nh6 makes for an interesting game when both sides have chances. After 7. b4 cxd4 8. cxd4 Nf5 Gary Lane recommended 9. Be3 followed by 10. Bd3 in his book "Beating the French" from 1994. The opinion has since then switched in favour of 9. Bb2. Coming to think of it, maybe it was 9. Be3 that was critisized by Timman in NIC, and not 6...c4.

Anyway, I find it hard to understand why 6...c4 is not seen more in master games since it is seems very hard for white to prove any advantage.

  
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MNb
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Re: French Adv., modern variation, 6...c4 vs 6...N
Reply #1 - 07/01/04 at 08:58:11
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My move is 6...Nh6 as it gives more chances to counter attack. But I will not state that this move is better than 6...c4. I think it is a matter of taste.
  

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C02:French Adv.,modern variation,6...c4 vs 6...Nh6
07/01/04 at 04:21:43
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In the modern varation of the French advance
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 d5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. a3
it seems the top players have moved away from 6...c4 in favour of 6...Nh6.

If I remember correcly, Jan Timman commented a game in NIC magazine last year where his comment to 6...Nh6 was something like "Earlier 6...c4 was played but practice has shown that this is somewhat favourable for white".

In my experience, blacks locks down the b-pawn with moves like Na5, Bd7 and possibly Ba4 and it is hard for white to generate counter play on the king's side.

Any comments on this? If you play this variation as white, what are your plans against 6...c4? If you play this variation as black, do you choose 6...c4 or 6...Nh6?
« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 18:11:57 by dom »  
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