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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) What opening should i play? (Read 12375 times)
TalJechin
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #23 - 09/17/04 at 02:27:00
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Quote:
As the Iljin-Genewsky rather differs from the Leningrad, I started a new thread.


You're right of course! I was just thinking Bf4 and Be2 and not about black's set-up. - Still, it might have been better with a thread on 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4, instead of this against every major black set-up. Still, no point in cryin over spilled wine...
  
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MNb
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #22 - 09/16/04 at 20:14:17
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Thanks for the correction, my post was a bit misleading indeed. The problem is, that there are no good examples with this line, Black playing the standard Qe8/Bd8/Nc6/e5 idea.
As the Iljin-Genewsky rather differs from the Leningrad, I started a new thread.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #21 - 09/16/04 at 02:40:16
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Two notes, i) in my base white didn't play h3 at all. ii) note that this game is from a tournament for girls. Black is Inna Agrest, daughter of Evgeny Agrest the highest rated player on the swedish list. The girl playing white had a terrible tournament by the way, ½/13, another reason to search for a better game example...

Since white didn't play h3 she also lost the chance to hide the bishop on h2 at move 13, still black neglected to play 16...e4! when black should be better. In the game white could probably gotten an edge with 20.Rae1 instead of 20.Bc4? So even with a less accuarate set-up white has practical chances...

Krzymowska,A - Agrest,I [A85]
ch-Nordic w, Stockholm SWE (7), 2003

1.c4 f5 2.d4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.Bf4 0-0 6.e3 d6 7.Be2 Qe8 8.0-0 Nc6 9.a3 a5 10.Qc2 Bd8 11.c5 dxc5 12.dxc5 e5 13.Bg5 Qg6 14.Qb3+ Kh8 15.Bxf6 Bxf6 16.Nd5 Bd8 17.Bc4 f4 18.exf4 exf4 19.Bd3 Qh5 20.Bc4 a4 21.Qd3 Bg4 22.Nd4 Ne5 23.Qc3 c6 24.Nb6 Bxb6 25.cxb6 f3 26.Rfe1 fxg2 27.Re3 c5 28.Ne6 Bxe6 29.Bxe6 Nf3+ 30.Kxg2 Qxh2+ 31.Kf1 Qg1+ 32.Ke2 Nd4+ 33.Kd3 Qg6+ 34.Kc4 Nxe6 35.Qd3 Qxd3+ 36.Kxd3 Rad8+ 37.Ke2 Nd4+ 0-1

post scriptum, if we continue discussing this line we should probably continue in the thread "Leningrad Dutch with Be2 " started by feb and to be found on page 2 in this section.
  
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MNb
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #20 - 09/15/04 at 21:22:18
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With a bishop on e2, Qh5 is not so attractive of course. But Black has more plans:
1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 d6 5.h3 Be7 6.Bf4 o-o 7.e3 Qe8 8.o-o Nc6 Krzymowska-Agrest, Stockholm 2003 was a nice win for Black, with very straightforward play: e6-e5 and f5-f4.
Black has also the early Ne4, with our without d7-d6.
  
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MNb
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #19 - 09/10/04 at 02:34:06
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The Budapest has the same objection as the Modern Benoni: after 2.Nf3 Black will not have his fun.
  
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #18 - 09/09/04 at 20:02:55
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I think the Budapest throws up plenty of aggresive options, even in some of the supposedly dull lines.  For example, after 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Ndb2 f6! is a rare move and one I think underrated from looking at it briefly (I'm considering taking up the Budapest, and so have been looking through some lines).

It's not covered in the e-books (as far as I can tell), and the usual "refutations" such as Rubinstein-Tartakower 1928 or NCO's Gleizerov-Bosch 1996 both seem easy to improve upon for Black.

I'd be happy to look at some lines (perhaps in a new thread) if anyone's interested.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #17 - 08/26/04 at 05:44:00
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Why is Qe8-h5 so dangerous in this set-up? 

White has a Bishop on e2, so one will constantly be looking out for Nf3-e5/d4/g5. Besides, white will try to open the centre with d4-d5 or c4-c5, so the slightest mistiming of g7-g5 can be disastrous...
  
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MNb
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #16 - 08/26/04 at 05:20:38
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I usually win after 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6. After completing development and playing e6-e5 (this is no loss of tempo, because Black does not play g6 in the Ilyin-Genevsky) and boring/passive play by White, Black can usually initiate a pawn storm with g7-g5. Exactly here the IG seems better than the Leningrad, because of the queen manoeuvre Qd8-e8-h5.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #15 - 08/25/04 at 16:11:22
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Yes, 10...Ne7 , g5 and Ng6 seems most natural to me too, if 11.Nf/b-d2 black could perhaps try Ne4-f6.

Still 10...Nb8 is liked by fritzie and the guy is a GM... 
But I definitely don't like that e5-e4 as it does more for white, (awakening Bh2 and weakening d4) than for black. And after pawn a5 falls, white looks much better.

Instead of e5-e4 black can perhaps play Bh6 and Nd7-f6-h5 or try to steam roll immediately with g5 and f4, but it will take a while before the tension has been built up. The stronger player should probably win with either colour.  Undecided
  
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feb
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #14 - 08/25/04 at 10:39:20
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I like this recommendation by Kindermann. I've also taken a look at the important position in Kovacevic - Komljenovic after 10.d5. The position is complex, but it looks roughly equal to me (Kindermann thinks Black is slightly better). Instead of 10...Nb8, I have the feeling that 10...Ne7, with the idea of a later g5 and Ng6, could be a better plan. Or where do you think Komljenovic went wrong?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #13 - 08/21/04 at 11:59:10
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I don't think Beim deals with this exact variation as on p57 white plays e3 before Bf4. That black still has to be extremely accurate isn't a good omen, though I can't say I've had much trouble with this line...

I did some searching in my other books and found some kind of remedy, though I think it's a bit optimistic with =+ after move nine.

Anyway, Kindermann offers some hope with the following game - guess who's playin' black!  Wink

Kreindl,H (2215) - Beim,V (2555) [A80]
Open, Oberwart AUT (2), 2002

1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 g6 4.h3 d6 5.e3 Bg7 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0 Nc6! 8.c4?! 

[8.d5 e5! with either a good king's indian or nice compensation for a pawn. However, after 8.c4 Ne4 9.Bh2 e5 10.d5 black (a YUG GM) played 19...Nb8 in the last game below. So how good is that 'good king's indian'?]

8...Ne4! 9.Bh2 e5' =+' Kindermann 10.a3? exd4 11.exd4 Qf6'-/+'  Kindermann 12.d5 Qxb2 13.dxc6 bxc6   0-1 [13...bxc6 14.Nbd2 Nc3-+]

So it seems that Kindermann doesn't take this variation as seriously as it may deserve. But so far 7...Nc6! does look like black's best.

There are few games available with ...Nc6, but so far black has scored alright at least  Cheesy

Pedersen,E (2400) - Danielsen,H (2490) [A80]
DEN-chT 9798 Denmark (3), 16.11.1997

1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.h3 g6 4.Bf4 d6 5.e3 Bg7 6.Be2 Nc6 7.0-0 0-0 8.Bh2 Qe8 9.c4 Ne4 10.Nfd2 Nxd2 11.Qxd2 e5 12.dxe5 dxe5 13.Nc3 Be6 14.Nd5 Rd8 15.Qc2 Rf7 16.Rfd1 Rfd7 17.Rac1 Qf7 18.Qa4 a6 19.Nb4 Rxd1+ 20.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 21.Bxd1 Nb8 22.Nd5 c6 23.Nb6 Nd7 24.Nxd7 Qxd7 25.Qc2 Qd6 26.a3 g5 27.Be2 h6 28.Kf1 c5 29.f3 Kf7 30.Bd3 Qd7 31.Bg1 Bf8 32.Bf2 b5 33.b3 Kf6 34.Be1 b4 35.a4 Bf7 36.Bd2 Bg6 37.Bc1 Bd6 38.Bb2 Ke7 39.e4 f4 40.Be2 Bf7 41.Qd1 Be6 42.Bc1 h5 43.g4 h4 ½-½

Kovacevic,S - Komljenovic,D [A80]
San Sebastian, 1997

1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.h3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.e3 d6 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0 Nc6 8.c4 Ne4 9.Bh2 e5 10.d5 Nb8 11.Nbd2 Nxd2 12.Nxd2 e4 13.Rb1 a5 14.Nb3 Nd7 15.Qd2 Ne5 16.Nxa5 c5 17.b4 cxb4 18.Nb3 Nd3 19.Nd4 Ra3 20.Nb5 Ra6 21.Bxd3 exd3 22.Qxd3 g5 23.Rxb4 f4 24.exf4 gxf4 25.Nd4 Qf6 26.Ne6 Bxe6 27.dxe6 Qxe6 28.Rxb7 Rxa2 29.Bxf4 Rxf4 30.Rxg7+ Kxg7 31.Qg3+ Rg4 32.Qxg4+ Qxg4 33.hxg4 Rc2 34.Rd1 Rxc4 35.f3 Rc6 36.Kh2 Kf6 37.Kg3 Ke6 38.Re1+ Kf6 39.Rh1 Rc7 40.f4 Rc3+ 41.Kh4 Rc2 42.Kh3 d5 43.Re1 d4 44.Re5 Rd2 45.g5+ Kg6 46.g3 d3 47.Rd5 Rd1 48.Kg4 d2 49.Rd7 h5+ 50.gxh6 Kxh6 51.Kf5 Rg1 52.g4 d1Q 53.g5+ 1-0
  
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #12 - 08/21/04 at 10:59:52
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I am struggling with the same problem, TalJechin. I also regularly face this setup from White when I play the (Leningrad or occasionally classical) Dutch, see also the thread "Leningrad Dutch with Be2". Sometimes with the bishop outside the pawn chain on f4, sometimes left on c1 (at least for a while). Although it doesn't promise White any theoretical advantage, it avoids theory and gives White a solid and easy-to-play position. Moreover, some of the usual thematic ideas which work fine against the fianchettoed bishop on g2, just won't work here. It is an underestimated setup in my view. (GM Beim admits on page 57 in his book "Understanding the Leningrad Dutch" that Black must play extremely precisely, but only shortly deals with Nc6 and Qe8 - both to prepare e5).
I hope someone can point us into the right direction.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #11 - 08/21/04 at 06:15:14
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If white wants boring play, there's not much black can do with any opening. If white doesn't go into the benoni with d4-d5, black should probably play a Tarrasch set-up, but that is quite different from a benoni, so who's fooling who?

The Ilyin is often a good choice, but yesterday in blitz I ran into a new 'boring' line at least for black: 

1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 the first few times I played 

I)3...e6, Be7, d6 playing for e6-e5; 

II)3...e6 Be7, b6; playing for control of e4

but it wasn't until I tried 

III) 3...g6 and playing for e7-e5 that I got any kind of play at all. Still I lost all three games rather convincingly, despite that our ratings were evenly matched at +2200.

White met everything with h3, c4, e3, Be2 and 0-0 and answered ...e7(e6)-e5 with Bh2. 

Which is a very annoying set-up, since I'm so used to playing against white's g3 fianchetto. Anyone having any suggestions for black, what to play for?

IMO playing for ...e5 must be the way to go, but after Bh2, I'm not sure how to continue. e5-e4, exd4, g5 & f4 or just waiting?

And if ...e5 is the best way to go, then playing e7-e6-e5 gives white a tempo more in a rather humdrum position which is much easier for white to play. So this set-up for white is probably at it's best against the Ilyin with 1...e6, but very solid against everything else as well... 

Another thing, is that a Stonewall set-up is practically excluded since white has his darksquared bishop outside the pawnwall which leaves e5 terribly weak...
  
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #10 - 08/21/04 at 03:02:38
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<you really can't do much better than the Modern Benoni>
I agree. There is only one non gambit system against 1.d4 sharper and richer in tactics than the Modern Benoni: the Iljin-Genevsky. The latter is perfect, to intimidate solid 1.d4 players.
Comparing the MB with the IG, it is also clear that White can force a boring game with 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 and 3.c3 but not with 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.c3 Nf6.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: What opening should i play?
Reply #9 - 08/20/04 at 12:16:08
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Also you can try Englund-gambit 1d4 e5??  Wink . At least you get some tactics before resigning.
  
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