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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why is the Birds Defence so unusual? (Read 50434 times)
HgMan
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #27 - 11/23/04 at 10:52:24
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I keep running into 1 f4 b6 in my games--and I agree: it is a nuisance!   Angry

But does it really prevent White from playing favorite lines?  After 1 f4 b6 2 Nf3 Bb7, what's wrong with 3 g3?  If Black wants to give up this potentially strong bishop, that's fine with me.  The kinds of positions that follow aren't terribly different from what we might see in a Veresov vs. Dutch, but this time, it's White with the open e-file and double f-pawns.  It's fairly solid for Black, surely it's okay for White? Undecided

I suppose 3 e3 is, objectively, the stronger or sounder response (and probably does get the Bird player out of his preferred system), but how many Black players would play 3 ... Bxf3?  Or is there something else I'm missing with the bishop on b7?
  

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alumbrado
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #26 - 11/23/04 at 09:28:15
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Although I have played the Pirc for years - and I love the Yrjola and Tella book to which you refer - I can't believe that the best Black has against the Bird is to offer White the chance to transpose to this very dangerous system!

White is doing very well in the Austrian at the moment, especially in the lines with 5...0-0 and then either the main lines with 6.Bd3 or the very dangerous 6.Be3!?  Of course black can play 5...c5(!) but he must be prepared for a semi-forced draw in the 6.Bb5+ line, and White has several ways to try for an advantage along the way here, some of which are underestimated both by Yrjola/Tella and Alburt/Chernin in Pirc Alert!  Undecided

Personally I quite like the idea of 1.f4 b6!? if only to get White away from lines he will have played 100 times if he is a regular Bird player.

As long as Black is prepared to defend aganst the Grand Prix Attack, though, he may do better to play 1...c5 2.Nf3 (2.e4 d5!) 2...g6 3.e4 Bg7.  [Note that reaching this position via a Bird move order cuts out White's option in the 'standard' GPA to play 1.e4 c5 2.f4 g6 3.d4!?]
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #25 - 11/23/04 at 09:17:50
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I always thought the Bird should be more popular.   
 
After all if the english opening (a flank opening) could be played so often with Black not having any theoretical problems at all with 1... e5, people who like these flank openings should probably be expected to try the Bird! 
 
What do the experts here think of Yrjola/Tella's idea in An Explosive Repertoire for Black?   
 
They recommend 1. f4 d6... saying that d6 is particularly appropriate because it covers the e5 square.   
 
2. Nf3 is followed by 2... Bg4.   
 
If 2. e4 d5!: you get a scandinavian where f4 is probably weakening, or maybe 2... Nf6 where transposition to the austrian pirc or closed sicilian is possible depending on how far White pushes his d-pawn. 
 
Moves like 2. e3 and g3 will be met by 2... e5 head on.   
 
I've played like this against the bird with very good results.   
 
Opinions from Bird-ies please!
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #24 - 11/23/04 at 08:00:49
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Even the so quiet country Switzerland knows a sharp gambit: 1.f4 f5 2.e4! is the Swiss Gambit. Compared to the From's Gambit White's extra move is useful.


Hardly best play by Black, but the Swiss Gambit does look like a bit of fun--and I like White's king's rook's potential after h4-h5.  Here are a couple of quick miniatures found online.  One from Bird himself, the other a more recent effort.  Black can do better, of course...

[Event "Vienna"]
[Site "Vienna"]
[Date "1873.07.21"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Bird,Henry Edward"]
[Black "Gelbfuhs,Oscar"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A02"]
1.f4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.d3 exd3 4.Bxd3 Nf6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Ng5 g6 7.h4 Bh6 8.h5 Bxg5 
9.fxg5 Nd5 10.hxg6 Qe7 11.Rxh7 Rxh7 12.gxh7 Qb4+ 13.Kf1 Qh4 14.Bg6+ Ke7 15.Qh5  1-0

[Event "Mos Craciun op"]
[Site "Romania"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Sorbun,Cristinel"]
[Black "Uta,Adeline"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A02"]
1.f4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.d3 exd3 4.Bxd3 Nf6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Ng5 h6 7.Bg6+  1-0
  

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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #23 - 11/23/04 at 05:50:06
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Even the so quiet country Switzerland knows a sharp gambit: 1.f4 f5 2.e4! is the Swiss Gambit. Compared to the From's Gambit White's extra move is useful.
  

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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #22 - 11/22/04 at 20:25:16
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An idle question for you Bird players - is 1 f4 f5 so bad? It used to be quite common in Staunton's time, but it seems to have been rather neglected since then. It has a certain baroque appeal, don't you think? One could consider it a Bird's Opening reversed, where White has the rather questionable extra tempo of f4.  John Cox


This has to rank in my Top 5 lists of posts!  Ironic (to me anyway) that some of the funniest posts (intentional no doubt) are also by some of the strongest players here.  Maybe 1...f5 against 1.f4 should be called the Parodox Defence.  Of course 1...f5 is playable.  I mean just look how weakening 1.f4 is.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #21 - 11/22/04 at 19:44:19
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An idle question for you Bird players - is 1 f4 f5 so bad? It used to be quite common in Staunton's time, but it seems to have been rather neglected since then. It has a certain baroque appeal, don't you think? One could consider it a Bird's Opening reversed, where White has the rather questionable extra tempo of f4.
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #20 - 11/22/04 at 14:36:42
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Quote:
couldn't agree more.

PS, since incorporating 1.f4 into my opening repetoire as White (i also play 1.e4 sometimes) I have a +2 =8 -0 record against players over 2400 in my last ten games with White. Its also helped me to my 1st IM norm!


Congratulations!  And I guess it says something about the subjective nature of chess, but I really like the kinds of positions that one typically sees in these lines.  Perhaps, though, there's something to be said for keeping quiet about the Bird!  Surely its "unusualness" is part of the appeal...

Grin
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #19 - 11/22/04 at 09:51:57
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couldn't agree more.

PS, since incorporating 1.f4 into my opening repetoire as White (i also play 1.e4 sometimes) I have a +2 =8 -0 record against players over 2400 in my last ten games with White. Its also helped me to my 1st IM norm!
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #18 - 11/18/04 at 22:36:38
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One of the things I've noticed from this very interesting thread (and the parallel thread on the Flank Openings discussion board) is that White has a number of different resources available to him. Smiley

TomR has done a nice job of suggesting a variety of alternatives to the various Bird-killing ideas put forward.  Does the Bird win outright and nobody knows about it?  No.  Has it been refuted?  No.  Does it create some intriguing positions that are a little different from standard e4 and d4 openings?  Yes.  And it strikes me that this has some appeal.  It also seems fair to say that White can eek some small advantage through careful play.  There do seem to be instances where White is better served avoiding a Reversed Leningrad--or at least not being dogmatic about insisting on a particular set-up, but this is the case in any opening.  In terms of practical chances over the board (or even correspondence chess, given the relative dirth of published material), 1 f4 seems to have a lot to offer.  Given its relative obscurity, how many opponents really have a polished line all worked out to combat the occasional Bird player they run into once every blue moon?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #17 - 09/12/04 at 12:30:26
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DragonSlayer: I think the critical test of 4...Nf6 is supposed to be 5.g3 and White is supposed to be clearly better. The trouble is that there is little theory on this and it has not been seen in practice very often recently.


I have replied to this in the Flank openings section.
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #16 - 09/12/04 at 09:00:44
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Not that I want to paint the devil on the wall, but after 7.c3 Qd6 8.Qe1 I found three games, 1 corr, 1 normal and 1 blitz, and black won all three...

About 1.f4 d5 2.d3 to avoid a reversed 2.Nc3 variation, after 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nbd2 I think 2.d3 has turned out well. 
A reversed Staunton may not be the end of the world either after 2...e5 3.fxe5 Nc6 but the worth of having d3 in isn't obvious after 4.Nf3 f6!? 

Simply playing 3...f6 and 4...e5 is more logical and a problem for white I think, since d3-d4 loses a tempo and playing e4 turns into some kind of KG with an early d3 which is usually too passive.
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #15 - 09/12/04 at 05:05:06
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TalJechin: What you suggest is a very sensible way for Black to play against the Birds. I think that 7.c3 is probably then best try for an advantage and the after 7...Qd6 8.Qe1!? now that d4 less effective. Black is very close to equalising in this line I think, but I still prefer White.

DragonSlayer: I think the critical test of 4...Nf6 is supposed to be 5.g3 and White is supposed to be clearly better. The trouble is that there is little theory on this and it has not been seen in practice very often recently.
As to 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6!? this is indeed irritating and that is why 1...d5 should be met by 2.d3. - see previous posts.
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #14 - 09/11/04 at 09:32:26
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In the From's gambit the critical line is not the old 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 (or the neo-From 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 g5) 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 g5?! but the even older (!) 4...Nf6! GM Henrik Danielsen who is probably the biggest expert on the Bird's opening (apart from Bent Larsen of course) lost to Lars Bo Hansen at the Danish Ch somtime around 1996/7, when he played 5.e3. He has now switched to the declined with 3.Nf3 dxe5 4.e4 Bc5 which is a position form the classical King's gambit declined (1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.fxe5 dxe5) which is supposed to be innocuous.

If agree with TomR that 1...d6 does not force 2.e4 if this was true I would certainly play 1...d6 2.e4 e5! transposing to the King's gambit. 2.Nf3 e5 3.e4 also transposes to the KG. However, White can play 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 reaching the line above.

I had the experience of playing a small open tournament in my native town of Faaborg, Denmark last year. Danielsen played 1.f4 in all his White games and won all of them. Unfortunately I had White and was stupid enough to play the Blackmar-Diemer gambit, when of course I should have played 1.f4. Then I would have known what the best defence for Black is!
I once heard that Malaniuk upon asked why he did not play the Bird opening, replied: "that extra tempo is gonna hurt me".
If I could only get a reversed Leningrad (and even that is questionable, e.g. in TalJechin's line Black uses the minus tempo to NOT weaken his position with c7-c5) I would play 1.f4 every game (and hope for 1...e5 2.e4! of course!)
Unfortunately, and here I agree with Bonsai, Black has too many annoying options, e.g. 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6!? (a Nc3 anti-Dutch with colours reversed) 3.e3 (3.g3 Bg4 4.Bg2 Bxf3 5.Bxf3 e5) 3...Bg4 and now what?
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #13 - 09/11/04 at 08:50:33
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Hmm, after:

1.f4 d5 2.d3 Nf6 3.Nf3 g6 4.g3 Bg7 5.Bg2 0-0 6.0-0 Nc6 

I don't see how your plan works out concretely. 

7.Qe1 d4 seemed to be a good deterent in McDonald,N - Nunn,J 4NCL, Birmingham ENG (1), 2001.

and 7.Nc3 d4 8.Ne4 Nd5 looks comfortable for black.

Surprisingly, 7.c3 seems to score best for white, though I'd prefer black after 7.c3 Qd6 8.Na3 e5 9.fxe5 Nxe5 10.Nc2 Nxf3+ 11.exf3 Re8 as in Uryupin,I - Ermolaev,A Voronezh op-B Voronezh (7), 2002, 
  
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