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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why is the Birds Defence so unusual? (Read 50380 times)
John Cox
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #57 - 02/14/05 at 12:59:08
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Well, if Kotronias and Georgiev can't equalise with conventional means clearly it is time to look elsewhere.....

Congratulations to TomR on his IM norm at Gilbraltar. I have an idea he is modestly forgetting to tell us about some wins against GMs with 1 f4, although those may have been with Black. But clearly if our 1 f4 f5 clash is to take place on level terms it will have to be soon.

After 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e3 Nd7 4 d4: I'm not sure how valid the reversed Stonewall theory is. Black isn't going to play stuff like ...c5, he's going to play moves aimed at dominating e4, including Nf6-e4 and Ndf6, maybe Bg4-f5. I remember obtaining some terrible positions like this with White back in 1982 or so.

I don't think in general one should think of the Bird's as a reversed Dutch. To quote Malaniuk on why he didn't play 1 f4; 'That extra tempo is gonna hurt me'.

I agree there must be scope for a good book on the Bird's. It can't be a worse move than 1 b3, and Tait/Jacobs wrote a decent book on that which sold plenty. To say nothing of the Veresov, the Colle, the London system......
  
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lnn2
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #56 - 02/14/05 at 08:10:28
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I wonder if any of the Bird's experts out there have encountered this line, and how they have fared?  This line may be an argument for a 2.g3 or 2.d3 move order after 1...d5, although I belive there are problems with those move orders as well.



Can anyone tell what is wrong with 2. d3 or 2. g3 after 1. f4 d5 ? The problems are not immediately obvious to a Bird novice!
  
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MNb
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #55 - 02/10/05 at 21:52:16
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It is time, to look at 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 seriously. Only in 2004 I have found 14 games, Black scoring an astonishing 79%.
This is too good to be true.
The idea of an early e7-e5 is also known as an antidote against the Iljin-Zjenevsky. But usually White has already played c2-c4 then; with colours reversed Black might support the d-pawn with c7-c6.

Mueller,D (2185) - Gassmann,V [A03]
NRW Klasse 1 0304 (4.6), 07.12.2003
1.f4 d5 2.Pf3 Lg4 3.e3 Pd7 4.Le2 Pgf6 5.0-0 Lxf3 6.Lxf3 e5 7.fxe5 Pxe5 8.b3 Ld6 9.Lb2 c6 10.d3 Dc7 11.h3 h5 12.Pd2 0-0-0 13.e4 Th6 14.d4 Pxf3+ 15.Dxf3 dxe4 16.Pxe4 Le7 17.c3 Dd7 18.Pg3 g6 19.Tae1 h4 20.De3 Pg8 21.Pe4 De6 22.Df4 and White was a little better.
But Black's play was rather artificial (11...h5). Larsen played an early c2-c4 and this gave me the idea of 8.Be2 Bd6 9.b3 Qd7 10.Bb2 o-o-o 11.c4 dxc4 12.bxc4 Rhe8 13.Qb3 with an interesting position.

In an earlier post it was suggested, that White should play the Stonewall, as the combination Bg5/Nd2 does not have a good reputation in the Dutch Stonewall. But after 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 4.d4 e6 I like Black's play after 5.c4 c6 6.Ld3 Ld6 7.0-0 Pe7 8.Pc3 f5 9.Dc2 Lxf3 10.Txf3 0-0 Caessens,R (2335) - Kuijf,M (2440) [A03], NEDchT, 1992. Maybe White should try 5.b3 (not 5.c4 c6 6.b3 Bb4+!) Bd6 6.Ba3 but White's play is not too convincing after Bxa3 7.Nxa3 c6.
So more precise 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 4.Be2 Ngf6 5.d4
a)5...e6 6.o-o c5 and
b)5.. g6 6.o-o Bg7 with positions from the Dutch Stonewall with colours reversed.
c)5...Bxf3 6.Bxf3 c6 7.o-o Qc7 Rodriguez Torres,C - Zamarbide Iñarrea,D [A03], ESPch U12 Mondariz (3.10), 2004, and now I suggest 8.c4 e6 9.b3 Bd6 10.Nc3 b6 11.Qd3 o-o 12.e4!?

I hope this helps a bit.
  

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HgMan
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #54 - 02/10/05 at 08:28:31
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Incidentally, I, too, would be very interested in seeing a careful treatise on the Bird.   Cheesy
  

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HgMan
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #53 - 02/10/05 at 08:27:23
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Can White delay Nf3 in order to avoid Bg4?  I'm wondering about playing: 1 f4 d5 2 d3 Nf6 3 g3; or 1 f4 d5 2 g3 ...  Lots of pawn moves, but White is likely to play them anyway.
  

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Geof Strayer
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #52 - 02/08/05 at 04:28:20
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After looking over the position some more, I think that TomR is likely correct that White's best option after 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 is 4.d4 followed by 5.Bd3 or 5.Be2 (since Black has forever given up Bc8-a6 ideas, it is not clear that d3 is a better square for the B than e2), transposing into a Stonewall structure for White.  Although I called White's position "insipid" in my last post, I did not mean to imply that White is actually worse and I doubt that he is.  In fact, the word "insipid" is probably not particularly apt.

I play the Stonewall as Black from time to time and usually Black does not play d5 (thus completing the "Stonewall") until either White has commited to the kingside fianchetto or White has played Pe2-e3 with the White B still on c1.  But this is mostly because there are some Bd3+Bf4 set-ups that are quite dangerous for Black due to White's ability to open lines on the kingside with a quick Pg2-g4.  (Serper-Sequera, San Felipe 1998 is a good example of the dangers lurking in such positions.)  This same concern would not appear to apply to White's Stonewall setup here because (i) Black's Bc8 has gone to g4, not f5; and (ii) White is, of course, a tempo up on the normal Black Stonewall position, making any hyperagressive tries by Black much more dangerous. 

So I would say that this is actually a quite decent Stonewall position for White. Although Black's position is obviously not bad, his early Bg4 may prevent him from playing some of the most promising plans, at least without a loss of tempo.   It doesn't seem that significant that Black has not yet committed to c7-c5, because Black will likely want to play that move anyway and will find it hard to generate play on the queenside if he doesn't.  And if Black goes for a kingside fianchetto (the most popular set-up against the Stonewall by far), the move Bc8-g4 appears to be premature.  If Black goes for a Nh6 setup (analogous to a Nh3 variation against the Stonewall for White), then Black's light-square B really belongs on f5 rather than g4 (the whole point of this set-up being to exchange White's Bd3 by playing Bf5 without allowing White to ruin Black's pawn structure), and if Black goes for a Nf6 set-up then the Bg4 may actually be slightly misplaced (Bg5 is not considered a promising move for White in similar positions against a Black Stonewall set-up).

In my database, White scores 12/24 or 50% from the position after 4.d4 despite being outrated by an average of 55 pts, which is not bad.  Of those games, Berkvens-Fressinet, WCh under-18 Oropesa 1999 showed some very thematic Stonewall play by White in the opening.  Although Berkvens eventually lost, he seemed to have a nice edge from move 17 on and was probably winning at some pt around move 28 before Fressinet swindled him.  Also interesting for its early kingside aggression by White is Williams-Palliser, Smith & Williamson 1999, although Black's 11...h6? against an attacker like Williams seems somewhat akin to waving a red cape at a bull. 

I suspect that the chief danger of this Stonewall set-up is that, if you only play the Dutch Leningrad and not the Dutch Stonewall as Black, you may not be as familiar with the typical strategies in Stonewall positions (which tend to be quite strategic in nature).  However, it is also possible that your opponent will not be a 1.d4 player who understands how to play against a Stonewall structure.  For anyone who is interested in learning more about such things, I can recommend Jacob Aagaard's "Dutch Stonewall" as an excellent source of explanations of the relevant strategies and piece set-ups. 

      - Geof Strayer
  
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lnn2
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #51 - 02/07/05 at 21:28:10
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Wili it be any good for new bird's player to look at books on the leningrad dutch? Or does the extra tempo make things significantly different? (like 1... e5 versus the English)

(I do not trust that the Classical Dutch type of set-up played with White will give White any advantage.)
  
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TomR
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #50 - 02/07/05 at 11:33:44
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I have experimented with ways of avoiding 2..Bg4 after d5 but they are far from convincing. THe critical line must be 2.Nf3 and 3.e3 then after 3...Nd7 White can probably play 4.d4, preventing e5, and planning to follow up with h3 next move. I find it very hard to believe that this position can be worse for White, although proving an advantage for White could also be problematic. 
I am going to have another look at this line to try and improve upon it, but in the meantime i'm open to suggestions!
  
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Geof Strayer
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #49 - 02/06/05 at 22:00:59
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After 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3, Black can choose between 5...e5!? (a very interesting gambit; I'm not convinced White can allow 6.Qxd5 Qh4+, and it's not clear whether any of White's alternatives are so great) and 5....c6 with the idea of 6...e5 next.  (5...Ngf6 is perhaps an inferior way to protect the Pd5 as it creates a target for a quick g4-g5, as shown in some of GM Danielsen's games.)

In my database, White is 0 out of 2 after 5...e5!? and 3.5 out of 13 after 5...c6.  Although the samples are relatively small, I note that the games after 5...c6 include a number of losses where solid masters are playing White, including a loss by GM Danielsen, who specializes in the Bird's.  Also, since the 1...d5, 2...Bg4 line is featured in the repertoire book "The Chess Advantage In Black and White," it seems likely that players of the Bird's will start encountering this line fairly frequently.

I don't think 2...Bg4 necessarily refutes the Bird's, but it may force White to choose between either:

(i) tranposing into a rather insipid version of the Stonewall structure after 3.e3 Nd7 4.d4, which might not suit the reversed-Leningrad school of Bird's players;

(ii) allow Black to play the 5...e5 or (more critically) the 5...c6 lines mentioned above, after which it seems likely that White is struggling a bit, and must come up with something new even to demonstrate equality; or 

(iii) play 4.Be2, which allows 4...Bxf3 5.Bxf3 Ngf6 with the idea of ...e5 next, as in Chernyshov-Svidler, Russia (rapid) 2003, a game which saw a FIDE 2534 player who specialized in the Bird's getting busted out of the opening, although Svidler later messed up and allowed Chernyshov to escape with a draw.

I wonder if any of the Bird's experts out there have encountered this line, and how they have fared?  This line may be an argument for a 2.g3 or 2.d3 move order after 1...d5, although I belive there are problems with those move orders as well.

        -Geof Strayer
  
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MNb
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #48 - 02/06/05 at 21:16:19
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"saying they would be interested"
I am. I know, that Rolf Schwarz wrote a book on the Bird in the sixties and Taimanov worte one on the Dutch and the Bird in the eighties, but I am sure they must be updated.
The books on the Leningrad and on the Classical Dutch have done well, so sure there must be a market for the Bird!?
  

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TomR
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #47 - 02/06/05 at 13:59:28
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I have no immediate plans to write a book on the Birds, however if there was enough interest I might reconsider. Maybe if enough people posted a reply saying they would be interested I would look into it!

There are not alot of books on 1.f4 but a reasonable introduction with recent games is the Birds trend booklet by S.Lalic and N.Regan. Its not gr8 but its a start.
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #46 - 02/06/05 at 11:05:26
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1.f4 comes through 2 critical tests!

At the recent Gibraltar Masters tournament i was able to try the Birds at the highest level.


Do you by any chance have any intentions to write a book on the Bird's? I am most interested to read it!

Failing which are there any works you can recommend for a Bird's beginner?
  
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TomR
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #45 - 02/06/05 at 09:48:47
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1.f4 comes through 2 critical tests!

At the recent Gibraltar Masters tournament i was able to try the Birds at the highest level.

In round one i faced Kotronias (2585) and he replied with 1...e5 (From's Gambit). the game went:

2.fe d6 3.ed Bxd6 4.nf3 g5 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 Ne7 7.d4 Nc6 8.c3 Ng6 9.Nxg6 hg 10.Qd3 Bf5 11.e4 Qe7 12.Bg2 0-0-0 
13.Be3! Be6 14.Bf2 with a clear advantage for White, although i was later outplayed.

Later, in Round 9 I was white against K.Georgiev (2652) and I again wheeled out 1.f4! I got a pleasant position in a Reverse Leningrad setup and eventually got a clear advantage in the middlegame. I then got over-ambitious and instead of forcing a drawn ending i went for an attack and over-pressed in time pressure.

Despite the 0/2 1.f4 held its own against 2 experienced GMs.

To see both games in full check out www.gibraltarchesscongress.com/gibchess/Gibmastersmainpage.htm
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #44 - 01/07/05 at 10:27:15
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Yesterday 1.f4 claimed its 1st GM victim (at my hands that is!). I won a reversed Leningrad position against the Russian GM Alexander Chernaiev in the last round of the Hastings International Congress.

1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4 does indeed prevent a reversed Leningrad but as MNb said e3 and h3 is logical and should give White some advantage.
If you are desperate for a reverse Leningrad you could try 2.d3 and only then Nf3, after which you will be able to meet ...Bg4 with Nbd2. However I am not convinced 2.d3 is best against other move orders so I would recommend 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3.

P.S. I'm glad to see this is now the most replied to post on the DD section of the forum! Thanks every1 for you interest!
  
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MNb
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #43 - 01/01/05 at 19:35:27
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3.e3 followed by 4.h3 looks logical.
  

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