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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why is the Birds Defence so unusual? (Read 50418 times)
TomR
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #12 - 09/11/04 at 05:52:59
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I can't see a situation where White has to stop e5 with d3-d4, he can just play with e4 and aim to meet ...e5 with f5 and an attack on the KingSide.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #11 - 09/11/04 at 05:37:52
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1.f4 d6 2.Nc3!? is worth a shot. If 2...e5 3.e4 exf4 4.Bc4 transposes to a quite nice KG. And 2...g6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e4 Bg7 5.d4 leads to an Austrian Attack. 

After 1.f4 d5 I have one doubt about 2.d3, what if black just plays a standard leningrad set-up but with Nc6 instead of c5. If white has to stop e5 with d3-d4, he's suddenly playing 'black' in a rather boring variation...  Angry
  
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TomR
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #10 - 09/11/04 at 04:18:35
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I agree there is no equivalent line after d4 f5 but after 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 is an interesting line.

1.f4 d6 2. d3 e5 3.Nf3 etc. I'm sure that this position is fine for Black - but fairly easy equality, i'm not so sure. GMs (including one who had time to prepare for 1.f4) have failed to equalise in this line. 
We might just have to agree to disagree on this one!
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #9 - 09/10/04 at 16:38:12
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Well, 1.f4 d6 2.d3 e5 looks entirely fine for black to me. I don't think black is better or anything, but surely this ought to be fairly easy equality. To comment again on the differences between 1.f4 and 1...f5: there is just no equivalent line for white after 1.d4 f5.
  
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TomR
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #8 - 09/09/04 at 12:46:34
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Paddy: If White is worried about line such as 2...h5 then he can always meet 1...d5 with the more flexible 2.d3 to delay g3. He can then play Nf3 without worrying about Bg4 as it can be met by Nbd2.
I accept that it may be boring to use all the time, and I would not do so, I use it in conjunction with 1.e4.

Bonsia: again 1...d6 can be met with 2.d3 keeping White's options open and significantly decreasing the effectiveness of Bg4 at any stage.
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #7 - 09/09/04 at 09:03:14
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f4 d6 does NOT force White to play 2.e4. Instead Nf3 planning d3, g3, Bg2, Nc3, 0-0 and eventually e4 is fine for White. I would be interested in how you propose to equalise Bonsai.


The idea of 1...d6 is to play 2.Nf3 Bg4, when white will presumably play 3.e4 (3.d4 is just an inferior stonewall with e7-e5 already well prepared - one might just as well play 2.d4 instead, but even then 2...Bg4 makes sense). Now black will just go on preparing e7-e5, I cannot quite remember how one ideally does this, but I think there are some comments on this in "An explosive opening repertoire for black" by Yröla and Teller (hope I got title and author right).
  
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Paddy
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #6 - 09/09/04 at 08:34:20
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I have been a Leningrad Dutch player for a couple of years and I have played it with reasonable results. Lately I have been experimenting with 1.f4 and it seems to me that this move is very under-rated! I have now played it 10 times with 6 draws (against 2GMs, 2IMs and 2 2300s) and 4 wins. I play it like a reversed Leningrad and, as yet, I have had few opening problems.
Can anyone suggest why the Birds is so unpopular, whereas the Dutch is played by many strong players?  ???


Hi Tom.

There are questions of fashion, of course, and also the boredom factor of playing the same set-ups with both colours. 

On the theory side, the problem may be that the very early commitment entailed in f4 and g3, coupled with the lack of direct pressure on the black position, combine to give Black a pretty free hand to react appropriately.

Concretely, it is also worth noting that the direct hacking attempt 1 f4 d5 2 g3 h5!? scores well for Black. There's an impressive example in the game Blatny-Akobian which can be viewed at ICC. Not sure many players would be comfortable with that sort of game as White.
  
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TomR
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #5 - 09/09/04 at 04:54:47
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I'm not sure I agree. 'Solid' sytems against the birds are ok for black but I do NOT think they provide an easy path to equality. The Dutch is not an opening used to equalise out of the opening, it is a more attacking option. However with careful play White can get a slight edge. However the extra tempo means that White can get in e4 at a time of his choosing without too much difficulty. This may be just a matter of taste but I think White has an edge in these positions, and my experience in games seems to back this up.
Is there a line in particular that you think equalises against a Leningrad set-up for White? Some moves would be helpful.
  
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MNb
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #4 - 09/09/04 at 02:43:11
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I think Bonsai hits the nail on its head. In the main lines of the Dutch White has to take some risks, if he/she wants to achieve something. With colours reversed, it is easier for Black to equalize by playing a solid system. One idea is a King's Indian setup. Another option is the double fianchetto with d5.
But if White is content with asymmetrical equality, there is nothing wrong with 1.f4, provided he/she does not expect too much.
« Last Edit: 09/10/04 at 02:38:18 by MNb »  

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TomR
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #3 - 09/08/04 at 13:18:06
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I will respond to both replies.

Firstly White has nothing to fear in the From's gambit, e.g. fxe5 d6, exd6 Bxd6, Nf3 g5, g3 g4, Nh4 Ne7, d4 Ng6, Nxg6 hxg6, qd3 is a clear edge to white. there are other lines but they are generally accepted to be good for White. f4 d6 does NOT force White to play 2.e4. Instead Nf3 planning d3, g3, Bg2, Nc3, 0-0 and eventually e4 is fine for White. I would be interested in how you propose to equalise Bonsai.

Secondly I agree Panda that Black can head for a closed Sicilian. However this is a reversed Dutch against 1.c4 and it is supposed to be a slight edge to White. Nigel Shgort plays it well for White and I have had good results with it as well. Also what is Black supposed to do if he is not willing to go into a Sicilian?
Against f4 d5, Nf3 e6, White can play a reversed Leningrad set-up with g3 etc. Remember that e3 systems are pretty ineffective against the Dutch and I have found that White usuallly get a slight advantage against these lines. The same should be true against 1...c6. White has no need to rush into e4, he can just play a reversed Leningrad set-up and play it when he's ready.
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #2 - 09/08/04 at 11:41:43
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I think most dutchers play 1.e4 to get sharp play fast. 1.f4 just doesn't offer much of that.

And besides, play can probably be transposed to openings from 1.e4 but reaching less dynamic lines. 

For example: 

1.f4 c5 followed by Nc6, g6, bg7, d6 etc should eventually transpose to a grand prix attack or a closed sicilian.

1.f4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 would probably have more in common with a minor french variation like the king's indian attack than an accelerated leningrad. Presumably, the same goes for 1...c6 - but with a good caro-kann instead of a good french  Wink
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #1 - 09/08/04 at 11:27:52
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I think one of the reasons is that one usually plays 1...f5 after white has played some move that is non-perfect for meeting f7-f5, i.e. 1.d4 does obviously rule out 2.e4 fxe4 3.d3, after 1.c4 such gambit play is less feasible, because playing 1.c4 just doesn't seem like a useful move in that respect, 1.g3 is not entirely suitable for it either. On the other hand one probably wouldn't play 1...f5 after 1.d3, 1.Nc3 - or 1.e4 Wink. In that sense black seems to have more options, in particular From's gambit 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6. There's also 1.f4 d6, which more or less forces white to play 2.e4. To compensate for those downsides I've just mentioned, white has an extra tempo, which does help a lot. Maybe that's one of the reasons.

There's another aspect: with black one is usually happy to get complex play with equal chances and white is unlikely to go for variations or types of positions that offer black such counterplay. On the other hand as black you are obviously not under any such "restrictions", hence when playing against 1.f4 black has in a way more options, because equality would be a success for black (and not really a success when playing white against the Dutch). I'm not sure whether this is really the case, but maybe 1.f4 makes it easier for black to equalise than e.g. 1.e4 or 1.d4. Of course black has to know what he is doing and I doubt most people spend much time on preparing for 1.f4.
  
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TomR
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Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
09/08/04 at 09:07:18
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I have been a Leningrad Dutch player for a couple of years and I have played it with reasonable results. Lately I have been experimenting with 1.f4 and it seems to me that this move is very under-rated! I have now played it 10 times with 6 draws (against 2GMs, 2IMs and 2 2300s) and 4 wins. I play it like a reversed Leningrad and, as yet, I have had few opening problems.
Can anyone suggest why the Birds is so unpopular, whereas the Dutch is played by many strong players?  ???
  
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