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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why is the Birds Defence so unusual? (Read 50391 times)
HgMan
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #87 - 10/10/05 at 18:20:40
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Re. the earlier discussion of the From on this thread, here's a recent game of mine in a correspondence game:

1 f4 e5 2 fxe5 d6 3 exd6 Bxd6 4 Nf3 g5 5 g3 g4 6 Nh4 Ne7 7 d4 Ng6 8 Nxg6 hxg6 9 Qd3 Nc6 10 c3 Qe7 11 Bg2 Bd7 12 Nd2 0-0-0 13 Ne4 Bf5 14 Bg5 Bxe4 15 Bxe7 Bxd3 16 Bxd8 Re8 17 0-0-0 Bxe2 18 Bf6 Be7 19 Bxc6 bxc6 20 Bxe7 Bxd1 21 Kxd1 Rxe7 22 Re1 Rxe1+ 23 Kxe1 Kd7 24 b4 Ke6 25 Kd2 f5 1/2-1/2

When comparing pawn structures, it seems almost criminal to accept a draw offer, but I don't see any way through.  24 b4 is weak, and I might be able to improve that.  But White was always comfortable here and I don't see any obvious improvements for either side, though White should be able to hope for more...

  

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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #86 - 09/04/05 at 11:19:04
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Black has a good move order: 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6! 3.e3 Bg7 and no b4  Shocked (what you named b5!?)

Dmitry Oleinikov
an author of  "The Bird" training CD (ChessBase)


I must admit I don't find this terribly persuasive for Black.  I've encountered a number of times with White just recently, and I think if there's any difficulty for White it's in determining which line to adopt, because there are several that seem okay.  Nowhere is White going to get a whopping advantage, but I think Black is hard pressed to reach equality.

More often than not, play reaches a reversed Classical Dutch where White has an extra tempo.

1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 g6 3 e3 Bg7 4 Be2 c5 5 0-0 Nc6 6 d3 Nf6

All pretty standard; Black can play almost any order of moves 3-6 depending on how terrifying s/he finds White's b4.  Here, White has a variety of options: 7 Nc3, 7 Qe1, 7 a4, and 7 Ne5.  I haven't tried this last yet, and have only played a4 after 7 Qe1 (7 Qe1 0-0 8 a4 Qc7 9 Qh4--though maybe this isn't right...), but I have tried  7 Nc3 b5 8 Qe1, after which my opponent played the weakening 8 ... h5.  More interesting from Black's point of view is 7 Qe1 0-0 8 Qh4 b5!? 9 Nbd2 c4 10 a3 Qb6 11 d4 b4 12 Ne5 bxa3 13 Rxa3 (13 bxa3? Nxd4! 14 exd4 Qxd4 and Black is winning) Nb4 14 Bd1 Bf5 15 g4 Bxc2 16 g5 Bxd1 17 Rxd1 with a difficult, but vaguely equal position...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #85 - 09/04/05 at 00:34:53
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No b4?  (whimper).  Well, White can continue his K-side development and play Be2, 0-0, and so on as in the Dutch.  He can then play b4 after Nf6, provided he times it so it's tactically sound.
  
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Ivanych
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #84 - 09/03/05 at 21:52:37
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Wow, it never occured to me the vast number of cool variation names for the Bird.  
...
I mentioned in another thread, but this is really the place for it:  what do you think of Larsen's 1. f4 d5, 2. Nf3 Nf6, 3. e3 g6 4. b5!?  His game against Spassky, Amsterdam '64, looked so pretty.



Yes, but Black has a good move order: 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6! 3.e3 Bg7 and no b4  Shocked (what you named b5!?)

Dmitry Oleinikov
an author of  "The Bird" training CD (ChessBase)
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #83 - 08/15/05 at 23:46:10
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I mentioned in another thread, but this is really the place for it:  what do you think of Larsen's 1. f4 d5, 2. Nf3 Nf6, 3. e3 g6 4. b5!?  His game against Spassky, Amsterdam '64, looked so pretty.


I'm not sure I can comment much on this game or line not having looked at it or played it at all, but it doesn't look especially foreign to the general Bird lines that often incorporate b3 at some early stage.

Nevertheless, this is an another example of the interesting positions that can be reached through 1 f4 and goes back to the question that TomR posed at the beginning of this thread...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #82 - 08/15/05 at 23:41:06
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Or better yet The Lame Duck line.  Undecided

TN Grin


Is this TN back-pedalling on the From?
  

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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #81 - 08/15/05 at 22:11:34
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Wow, it never occured to me the vast number of cool variation names for the Bird.  How about the "Tar and Feather" line?  The Funky Chicken?  The Wild Turkey?  The Chicken Little?  The Road Runner?  The Clay Pigeon?   

Gads, the list is almost endless.   

I mentioned in another thread, but this is really the place for it:  what do you think of Larsen's 1. f4 d5, 2. Nf3 Nf6, 3. e3 g6 4. b5!?  His game against Spassky, Amsterdam '64, looked so pretty.
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #80 - 08/15/05 at 17:48:20
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I wonder if we could call this the Albatross variation of the Bird...


Or better yet The Lame Duck line.  Undecided

TN Grin
  

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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #79 - 08/15/05 at 06:40:56
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I wonder if we could call this the Albatross variation of the Bird...
  

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TomR
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #78 - 08/14/05 at 17:29:33
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Well!!

After 13..Bd7 I will simply play 14.Bf2 and I stand by my view that White has a clear advantage. Incidentally, I talked with Kotronias after the game, he agrees with me <or did>.

This line is tricky: f4 e5, fe Nc6, Nf3 g5, h3 d6, d4 de, d5 e4, dxc6!? and I do not think that White should be worse after these complications, - I may post again tomorrow after i have examined this line in more detail!
                                          Wink
« Last Edit: 08/15/05 at 06:21:17 by TomR »  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #77 - 08/14/05 at 16:16:12
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I'm enjoying this, though, TN, no need to goad me--I'm always more than pleased to discuss and analyze interesting positions.

I wouldn't be inclined to call it back-pedaling to concede that I hadn't looked too carefully at 11 ... Bd7 before posting.  I had been looking at Bd7 ideas in a different move order and simply transposed those to the position in question.  TN is right that 11 ... Bd7 is better than 11 ... Be6, but to rely on one trick (Rxh2, Bxg3+) does not guarantee the success of the From.  14 e5 is a downright blunder, but what about the simple 14 Kd1 ?  The king is going to c2 and the knight to c4, where it will look to exchange the bishop on d6 and leave a weakness for Black on that square (cxd6 is typically better than the queen capture).  Often the best way to counter a gambit is through prophylactic play.  And I don't want this thread to devolve into a generalistic discussion of gambits, but TN thinks it's ludicrous to compare the KG and the From because in the From White has created a weakness that ought to be exploited.  Fair enough, but it's only a weakness if it can be exploited, and in attempting to claim an initiative in the From, Black all too often creates too many weaknesses in his/her own camp.  I'm not trying to close the book on the From here, because it is a fascinating and--I'm sure TN will agree--complicated variation of the Bird.  But I think it's key redeeming feature--it doesn't bust the Bird as TN asserts--is that, like 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Bg4--it opens the position, which often is not to the liking of the first player playing 1 f4.  I like interesting, closed positions, and I often get them after 1 f4.  The From opens the position up and leaves me a little out of my depth at times.  It's something I need to work on, but it doesn't mean that the From has refuted 1 f4 for good.  Not by a long shot...

Personally, I prefer snapping up both pawns as White: 1 f4 e5 2 fxe5 d6 3 exd6 Bxd6 4 Nf3.  I currently have one correspondence chess game in the From: 1 f4 e5 2 fxe5 d6 3 exd6 Bxd6 4 Nf3 g5 (Tom's right that 4 ... Nf6 can be quite challenging) 5 g3 g4 (5 ... Nc6 is well worth a look here, too--I think it's quite dangerous) 6 Nh4 Ne7 7 d4 Ng6 8 Nxg6 hxg6 9 Qd3 Nc6 10 c3 Qe7 11 Bg2 Bd7, which is, quite obviously, a significant departure from the line in question (Rendle-Kotronias).  We've moved on a few moves from here, and I'll be happy to share the rest of the game as it develops, but I'm rather pleased with my position.

Looking forward to another lambasting from TN...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #76 - 08/14/05 at 14:33:39
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Latest news:

I have almost given up 1.f4 as I am now happy with 1.e4 after months of work. I shall summarise my thoughts briefly on the Bird's now as I see it.

1...e5?! the Froms gambit. The mainlines for this seem to be just good for White. gl to any1 using the Birds, I shall continue  use it from time to time, but sadly its back to the maze of theory that is 1.e4!


Well yes, the Bird is best used from time to time, but I take issue with your dubious sign for the From's as you have failed to address the improvement I put forward in your Kotronias game, after which it is White that is struggling.

You have also failed to show anything convincing against the Neo From, both in this thread and the one in the Flank section. You claimed a clear advantage based on a game with a local IM, who clearly despite his title did not know the theory very well: 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 g5 4.h3 d6 5.d4 dxe5 6.d5 e4! [Not 6...Nce7 7.e4 as in your game with the local IM which I agree clearly favors white] and if anything the complications favor Black. 

Are you sure that your 1.e4 prep is the only reason for abandoning the Bird. Be honest now, you can confide in us.  Wink  

Tops Grin

Postscript: Don't feel left out of the loop HGman, I haven't forgotten you, in fact I eagerly await your hopefully substantive response to my previous post.  
  

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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #75 - 08/14/05 at 13:56:54
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I have almost given up 1.f4 as I am now happy with 1.e4 after months of work. I shall summarise my thoughts briefly on the Bird's now as I see it.

1...e5?! the Froms gambit. The mainlines for this seem to be just good for White. I think the critical line is 2.fe d6 3.ed Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 with interesting comp. White will have to play well to convert his extra pawn.

Most of the reverse Leningrad positions offer White interesting play, and, debatably, he can claim a small edge. Lines with ..d5 and ..c6 can be irritating for White .

1..c5 tends to lead to Closed Sicilian positions, White can maybe claim a tiny edge, but its pretty equal. If u can don't play 1.f4 if they are happy with a Sicilian.

IMHO 1..d5 and 2..Bg4 is the best line for Black. I'm not convinced by 3.Ne5 and after 3.e3 c6 Black can play for e5 with a comfortable game.

gl to any1 using the Birds, I shall continue to use it from time to time, but sadly its back to the maze of theory that is 1.e4!
  
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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #74 - 08/13/05 at 19:03:12
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My instinct is that the From is only a problem for the Bird insofar as many of its practitioners are looking for a relatively closed position out of the opening and the From opens everything up.  That said, I don't understand why TN would scoff at the King's Gambit, but then happily give up two central pawns for a flank pawn in the From!   Wink  

Moreover, I just don't think the From is very good for Black.  13 ... Bd7 is certainly an improvement on 13 ... Be6, but I don't see how White is in anymore trouble.  Black was simply lost of 13 ... Be6; after 13 ... Bd7, there's still plenty of play in the position, but I still think White has all the chances.

Incidentally, there are all kinds of transpositional possibilities here, many of which take the game off in a variety of directions.  Black can play 11 ... Bd7, which creates an altogether different kind of game...


I have already explained at length when I think it is appropriate to consider playing a Gambit continuation in another thread, I challenge you to find it. 

In case you are unable to find it, here is the short version. 1.f4 voluntarily compromises white's own kings position on the e1-h4 diagonal, so much so in fact that after 1...e5!? White need only cooperate with 2.g4 allowing the now infamous two move checkmate. When the opponent self inflicts weaknesses we are well within or rights to try to exploit them as energetically as possible, if that entails a gambit, then so be it.

HGman may not think that 13...Bd7 below is a significant improvement on the T. Rendle vs V. Kotronias game, but it is. In fact HGman doesn't think very highly of the From's at all, to each his own I guess. 

1.f4 e5 2.fe d6 3.ed Bxd6 4.nf3 g5 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 Ne7 7.d4 Nc6 8.c3 Ng6 9.Nxg6 hg 10.Qd3 Bf5 11.e4 Qe7 12.Bg2 0-0-0 13.Be3 Bd7! 

Here HGman agrees that 13...Bd7! is better than Kotronias' 13...Be6?!, but thinks that White still has all the chances. Unfortunately he does not supply us with White's 14th move, which will have to address the extremely awkward threat of Rxh2 followed Bxg3+. 

In the absence of anything substantive from HGman I will supply a couple of illustrative games that underscore White's difficulties in this line:

[Event "NWAPA Rector Cup"]
[Site "St Petersburg RUS"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Pogosian,Vl"]
[Black "Solovjov,S"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2204"]
[BlackElo "2456"]
[ECO "A02"]
[Round "4"]

1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 d6 3. exd6 Bxd6 4. Nf3 g5 5. g3 g4 6. Nh4 Ne7 7. d4 Ng6 8. Nxg6 hxg6 9. Qd3 Nc6 10. c3 Bf5 11. e4 Qe7 12. Bg2 O-O-O 13. Be3 Bd7 14. Nd2 Rxh2 15. Rxh2 Bxg3+ 16. Bf2 Bxh2 17. O-O-O Bf4 18. Kb1 g3 19. Bxg3 Ne5 20. dxe5 Ba4 21. Qf3 Bxd2 22. b3 Bb5 23. c4 Bc6 24. Qf2 Bg5 25. Rd5 Kb8 26. Bf4 Bxd5 27. exd5 Bxf4 28. Qxf4 Re8 29. d6 cxd6 30. exd6 Qe1+ 31. Kb2 0-1

[Event "?"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1993.??.??"]
[White "Klausen,T "]
[Black "Wisloff,S "]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A02"]
[Round "?"]

1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 d6 3. exd6 Bxd6 4. Nf3 g5 5. g3 g4 6. Nh4 Ne7 7. d4 Ng6 8. Nxg6 hxg6 9. Qd3 Nc6 10. c3 Bf5 11. e4 Qe7 12. Bg2 O-O-O 13. Be3 Bd7 14. e5 Bxe5 
15. dxe5 Nxe5 16. Qe2 Rhe8 17. Nd2 Nf3+ 18. Nxf3 Bb5 0-1 And this was a correspondence game for crying out loud.

I gather HGman likes 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.Nf3 dxe5 4.e4/Nc3, but despite Danielsen's occasional espousal of it, it amounts to nothing more than an inferior Kings Gambit Declined for white. 

It is important to realise that a gambit opening for Black that equalises is somewhat of a victory for him. However a gambit opening for White that at best equalises is not considered such a big achievement, as we expect a bit more from the white pieces. 

In light of the above, it would be nice if HGman and others would stop harping on comparisons between White and Black gambits such as the KG and From's for instance. Such comparisons are more or less absurd, it would be much more compelling to compare like with like.

Conclusion: The From's is most likely the reason that the Bird's Opening isn't more popular, especially at the lower levels and I don't think this is likely to change anytime soon.  

Toppylov Grin

Postscript: Will we get to see HGman's trademark back pedalling in his next post I wonder.  Wink
  

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Re: Why is the Birds Defence so unusual?
Reply #73 - 08/13/05 at 11:05:49
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HgMan:

Touche  Smiley  You may have pinked me there.
  
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