Interesting excerpt.
Especially vs 1. d4 Nc6 2. d5 Ne5 3. e4 e6 4. f4   

which is the recommended line for white in both  Avrukhs GM Rep 2 and Schandorffs latest Playing d4 : Indian defenses.

Black can play 4... exd5! and if with takes the knight force a draw with 5. fxe Qh4+
(5. Nc3 still looks good for white though.)

What I am wondering though is that I think that if you play 1... Nc6 you are basically looking for a non-theoretical chess fight. A genuine struggle for self-expression and creativity.

Would any forum contributors who plays 1...Nc6 play/allow this potentially drawing 4... exd5 5.fxe line against equal/slightly stronger opposition?

SorenJensen wrote on 05/18/06 at 23:09:54:


There is a new book out soon that has plenty to say about this, it seems!

http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/The_Dark_Knight_System%3A_A_repertoire_...

The Dark Knight System: A repertoire with 1...Nc6
by James Schuyler

A pfd sample is available with exactly the chapter that discusses this 6..d5 idea in some length!
http://www.everymanchess.com/extract/Dark%20Knight%20System%20extract.pdf

[/quote]

The position after 1. d4 Nc6 2. d5 Ne5 3 e4 e6 4.f4 Ng6 5. de6 fe6 6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Bd3 Nf6 8. g3 is an interesting position to analyse. Playing battle of the programs, for once I agree with fritz and am sure White is better (though Fruit and Rybka don't agree). In blitz, i've had a lot of 8... Ng4 stuff which is quite harmless, and many games saw White carrying out a kingside attack to victory.   

But this is a moot point, because 8. e5! looks terrifically strong, after 8... Ng4 9. Bxg6!! hxg6 10. Qd3! Rh6 11. Nc3 Nf2 (11... Bf2+ 12. Ke2 +-) 12. Qc4! Nxh1 13. Qxc5 b6 14. Qg1 +- White is winning (S. Meenakshi-A. Abdulla Hyderabad 2006).[/quote]


That was unpleasant, but then again it has been known for a while (it is in Keilhack and Schlenker's '95  book, and there are probably earlier sources) that 7... Nf6 is inferior because of 8.e5,  and that 7 ... Nh6 is a better move. Perhaps white can prove an edge also after that move.

However, I wonder if it might not be worth the while  to look at an earlier black deviation in this system, namely an early d5 which  possibly could be tried against both 6.Bd3 and 6.Nf3. If nothing else it does seem to give black a bit more lebensraum.


The only major game I know is  Wood - Penrose 1957, which started
1. d4 Nc6 2. d5 Ne5 3 e4 e6 4.f4 Ng6 5. de6 fe6 6. Bd3 d5 7.e5 Nh6 8.Be3 Nf5 9.Bxf5 exf5 10.Nf3 Be7, comfortable enough.  In a recent correspondence game I met 7.Qe2 and there followed 7... Bb4 8.c3 dxe 9.Bxe Bd6 10.Bxg hxg ( I have no idea if blacks play was sensible but black survived).


1. d4 Nc6 2. d5 Ne5 3 e4 e6 4.f4 Ng6 5. de6 fe6 6. Nf3 d5  seems to be largely (totally?) untested but one can note that Sid Pickard , on his Bozo-Indian cd, said that this may well be blacks best at this point.


Would be interesting to hear if anyone has had any experience with this early d5 and if there is more material around. For starters does Burgess and Pedersen have anything to say about it?

I suppose I should have chosen the term "standard" rather than "common" as surveys come up with strange results sometimes. Still, I maintain that the Old-Indian move-order should be considered the main path.
4. Ktf3 is the most logical move as 4. e4 e5 ; 5. d5 allows 5. ...Ktd4 and apart from 4. ...g6, which is doubtful itself, I don't see a reasonable alternative to 4. ...e5

Dear Michael,

 Surely you will admit that this is best referred to as an Old-Indian and I think I have already made the point that the traditional move-order must be regarded as the main path leading to it. 
It just seems to me that these nomencalature matters would be so much simpler if openings didn't change names every ply or so!
By the way, I suggested using 1. ...d6 for those willing to play the Pirc/Czech/Neo-Philidors/UDKP/Mestrovic Defences and wishing to avoid the Trompovsky, but then 2. c4 e5 and 2. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 3. c4 Bf5 strike me as more appealing forms of Old-Indian. However, this particular point, I will admit, is to some extent a matter of taste...

                                                  Regards,
                                                       Hubert

P.S. I'll be sticking with the more prosaïc "Two Knights' Indian" for 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 Ktc6                                                  

[quote author=urusov link=1097168063/15#18 date=1147569891]I have posted [...] a series on something I call The Panther, which can be reached via 1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 Nf6 4.Nc3 e5
Most of my own games with this system go 1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d5 transposing to the Chigorin.  I have always been surprised that not more opponents play 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 treating it as an Alekhine Defense on the other side of the board.[/quote]

Dear Urusov,

 Why give this a seperate name? It is simply a ...Ktc6 Old-Indian which is more commonly reached through the move-order 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 d6 ; 3. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 4. Ktf3 e5. Now 5. d5 Kte7 ; 5. e4 g6 will transpose to the main line of the Classical KID unless White comes up with better moves than Be2 and 0-0. The subject of chess opening names seems confused enough as it is, without adding any superfluous ones!
Furthermore, I don't quite grasp the point of your move-order. In addition to the above line, Black has to face 2. e4 , 2. d5 and 3. d5 which are no piece of cake. The only benefit I can think of is avoidance of the Trompowsky. This can also be achieved by 1. ...d6, so unless one wishes to meet 1. d4 Ktc6 ; 2. e4 with the Kevitz-Mikenas Defence (2. ...e5) or the "pure" Nimzowitsch Defence (2. ...d5) as opposed to the Mestrovic Defence (2. ...d6), this is a more accurate move. 
It should perhaps also be pointed out that 2. Ktf3 d5 is not a direct transposition to the Chigorin since White also has the option of 3. Bf4, but Black is not too far from equal in either case.

                                                                                      Regards,
                                                                                        Hubert

Quote:


There's one by Keilhack too, 1...Sc6! aus allen Lagen, though only the last 20 pages deal with the Lithuanian defence 1.d4 Nc6