[quote author=Glenn Snow link=1097168063/0#6 date=1097703522]Firstly, I definitely agree that a comprehensive book covering 1.d4 Nc6 (not including all transpostions to 1.e4 Nc6) would be a great idea.  Now a couple of questions:

1) Doesn't the move order 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 pretty much force Black to play 3...e6 and transpose into the critical line after 4.f4 Ng6?  (Not that this is such a big deal as 5.dxe6 seems to be the best move in either case.  Meaning after ...e5 or ...e6.)

2) Obiously after 5.dxe6 Black would like to be able to get away with 5...fxe6.  Has this been convincingly refuted?[/quote]

Raymond Keene wrote a book as Nc6 for black.

Actually after 4. ...d6 as well, 5. Bd3 is stronger than 5. c4 since 5. ...e6 is again met by 6. de fe ; 7. f5

Here you’ve caught me out! To my shame I haven’t looked yet at the Uberdeker Defence – a treat I’m storing up – so I can’t comment yet on that. For the rest I mainly agree with you, but I am tempted nevertheless to pick up on a few things:

(1)   I agree that 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Ne5 3 e4 d6 4 f4 Ng6(?!) should in principle leave Black worse off than if he’d played …e7-e6 rather than …d7-d6. But if White chooses Berdichevsky’s 5 c4, I wonder if 5 …e6 isn’t an idea anyway, and no worse perhaps than Mestrovic’s ill-fated 5 …Nf6 6 Nc3 c6. Compared to the normal Bogo Defence line Black’s KB is inside the pawn chain, but then on c5 it often gets hit with Nc3-a4 or b2-b4, and Black might be able to arrange …Nh6 and …Be7-f6. Decidedly iffy-looking, though, I do agree! 

(2)   1 e4 Nc6 2 d4 d6!? 3 c4 e5 is an interesting position which we could talk about in another thread. As for 3 Nf3 and 3 Nc3, Mestrovic meets both with 3 …Nf6 because he’s happy with the Nimzowitsch Defence main line after (e.g.) 3 Nf3 Nf6 4 Nc3 Bg4. Personally I don’t like Black’s position here after 5 Be3 (though I think after 5 …e5 only a strong player can guarantee getting an advantage), and would prefer trying to enter B08 Pirc/Modern lines with …g7-g6 (with or without …Nf6 first). I’m sure White can claim a small advantage in these positions, but -- and here see JEH’s comments in the "Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?" thread -- I’m not convinced it’s especially stable or easy to maintain, so to this extent I’d maintain knight moves have the same status as 3 d5 (which of course I’d meet with 3 …Nb8). Berdichevsky in fact (again see the aforementioned thread) suggests another option, 3 Be3 Nf6 4 f3, as used by him in 1991 to defeat … Mestrovic! -- but perhaps all the ‘i’s and ‘t’ haven’t been dotted and crossed here …


Of course, as well as your views on this I’d be keen to hear what you think best play is in the 3 f4(!) Bogo line.

Further to my last post on this subject, I recently acquired Berdichevsky's book, and I notice that whereas his Informator-style notes to his cited games reinforce the verdict that 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Ne5 3 e4 e6 is a bit better for White, he upholds Mestrovic's 3 ...d6!? 4 f4 Nd7!? (4 ...Ng6 5 c4!, Jelen--Mestrovic), on the basis of two games:

5 c4 Nc5 6 Nc3 e5 7 de (7 Nf3!? ef 8 Bf4, Berdichevsky) Be6 8 b4 Na6 9 a3 g6 10 Bb2 Bg7 11 Qd2 Nf6 unclear (Palac--Mestrovic)

5 Nf3 c6 6 c4 Nc5 7 Nc3 Nf6! 8 Qc2 g6 9 9 Be2 Bg7 10 0-0 0-0 11 Kh1 cd 12 cd Bd7 13 Be3 Rc8 14 Nd2 b5! with counterplay (Soln--Mestrovic)


Actually, Mestrovic has usually reached these positions via 1 e4 Nc6 2 d4 d6!? 3 d5 Ne5; only once in fact does he appear to have reached them via 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Ne5 3 e4 d6, usually having preferred 3 ...e6 here. Again further to my previous post [in which my point '1' seemed to confuse 3 ...Ng6 and 3 ...d6 lines -- apologies!], after 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Ne5 3 e4, 3 ...Nf6?! looks highly dubious, but 3 ...Ng6 playable -- 4 f4 d6 would, obviously, transpose to Jelen--Mestrovic mentioned above.

Anyone got any thoughts on these lines?

In reply to Glenn's last post but one:

(1) Black can try 3 ...Ng6!? after 3 e4 as well as after 3 Nf3. (After 3 f4, 3 ...e5 could be called practically or psychologically better than 3 ...e6, but as you imply, it is not theoretically better.) Mestrovic has scored well with this after 4 f4 (4 Nc3!?) Nd7!?; whether it's any good is perhaps another matter. The even more daring 3 ...Nf6 4 f4 Ng6 5 e5 Ng8 has also been seen ...

(2) The critical line after 3 e4 e6 4 de fe 5 f4 Ng6 seems to be 6 Nf3 Bc5 7 Bd3!? followed by g3. White has a big plus score on ChessLive with this plan.

Does anyone have any views on these lines, and can anyone tell us what Berdichevsky says about them?

Firstly, I definitely agree that a comprehensive book covering 1.d4 Nc6 (not including all transpostions to 1.e4 Nc6) would be a great idea.  Now a couple of questions:

1) Doesn't the move order 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 pretty much force Black to play 3...e6 and transpose into the critical line after 4.f4 Ng6?  (Not that this is such a big deal as 5.dxe6 seems to be the best move in either case.  Meaning after ...e5 or ...e6.)

2) Obiously after 5.dxe6 Black would like to be able to get away with 5...fxe6.  Has this been convincingly refuted?

As a diehard Nimzo player (with 2 ...e5!? -- should this be called the Kennedy Defence?) I'd certainly agree with Glenn that 3 Nf3 is a bit tedious, but I'm not too unhappy with Miles's 3 ...ed 4 Nd4 Bb4!? anti-Scotch line, as Black has the same strategic possibilities of pressuring e4 as in the Nimzo line 3 de Ne5 4 f4 Ng6 or ...Nc6.

On 3 d5 Nce7 4 Be3, I always thought Miles's 4 ...f5!? was the way to go, but I haven't researched this particularly. Can White get an edge here or is Black OK?

In the Bogolyubov Defence proper, 1 d4 Nc6!? 2 d5 Ne5, after 3 e4 e6 I agree that 4 Nc3!? is interesting, but then 4 ...Bc5 and 4 ...ed!? both seem sound replies. Meanwhile after 3 Nf3 Nf3, 4 gf seems to be more commonly played than 4 ef for some reason! Can anyone offer enlightenment here? And who is it who says 4 ef is good for White? If they're right, and if 3 ...d6 is not so good either, maybe Black could look at 3 ...Ng6!?, which has been tried at least once?

I'd tended to think the critical line of the Bogo Defence was 3 f4 Ng6 4 e4 e6 5 de fe 6 Nf3 Bc5 7 Nc3, but is this so, and in any case is 5 ...de so bad? Isn't it about time someone wrote a book on this fascinating system, or am I being naive?!