Normal Topic Leningrad 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5 (Read 5700 times)
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Leningrad 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5
Reply #6 - 10/25/04 at 23:38:53
Post Tools
I'm glad you decided to continue to contribute!  All of the information you provided looks correct to me.  The only other possibility for Black (after 10.Qb3) that I'd look more into is 10...Nd7!?  This has been tried before, and rather unsuccessfully, but the games I've seen looked poorly played by Black.  However, I'm not overly optimistic about 10...Nd7.  Unfortunately 10...e4 or 10...Kh8 11.e4 e6 look shaky to me as well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Leningrad 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5
Reply #5 - 10/25/04 at 13:29:41
Post Tools
Glenn, I did reply to a question about this in the 8...Na5 thread.
Due to the recurring ignorant putting down of things I have written elsewhere I had decided not to contribute more to this forum. But now I think I will just ignore this kind of insults from small people with huge ego problems.

Yes, there was a series of two articles by Jensen in NIC Yearbook 68 and 70 on the line 8...Ne5 9.Nxe5 dxe5 10.e4 f4 11.b4 and only on this line. I did not say anything about 11.gxf4, 10.Qb3 or any 9th move alternatives.

Personally I have a good score against 10.Qb3 but only because White players played the wrong moves.
The problem with 10.Qb3 h6 or 10.Qb3 Kh8 is that White can reply 11.e4! and if 11...f4 12.gxf4. In these lines Qb3 is clearly more useful than Kh8 or h6. A Black Nxc3 does not hit the queen on d1 anymore (compared with Chandler-Plaskett) and Qc3 check becomes a possibility after Kh8.
Ehlvest even gives this critical line (on page 67) without realizing how imprtant it is.
The problems were convincingly highlighted by Robin Edlund in a letter to the Forum section of NIC Yearbook 71. I checked all of his analysis and found no holes in it, and neither did Sosonko. Unfortunately the editorial team did not forward Mr. Edlund's letter so I was denied the chance to reply.
Given that the move 11.e4 is the problem, Black has only two improvements:
A) 10...e4 is the obvious choice. This is not normally a move one wants to make if White can reply 11.f3 but there are extenuating circumstances for Black.
B) Perhaps Black can use Kh8/h6 in one of the ...e6 lines (as in 10.e4 e6 which is better for White)
10.e4 e6 11.Qb3 Kh8 is given as better for White by Elvest (Donner-Johannesen, Beverwijk 1965) and 10.Qb3 Kh8 11.e4 e6 reaches the same position. However Luccioni improves on that game with 12.Be3 exd5 13.cxd5 f4 transposing to Uhlmann-Espig, DDR 1976 or Tartakower-Alexander, Hastings 1953/4. He also gives the possible improvment for White: 14.gxf4 This is a position where White has the resource 14...exf4 15.Bxf4 Nxe4 16.Bxc7! since Black cannot reply 16...Nxc3.
10.e4 e6 11.Qb3 h6 looks worse for Black, though it does prevent Bg5 in reply to ...e6.

In conclusion, I would play 10...e4 and also take a good look at 10...Kh8 11.e4 e6!?

Strangely, these posibilities are not examines in YB 71.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
1.d4 f5 2.g3 g6 3.BgRe: Leningrad 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5
Reply #4 - 10/20/04 at 20:19:23
Post Tools
After 1.d4 f5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.d5 Ne5

1)  9.Qb3 Nxf3 10.exf3 (10.Bxf3 Nd7 11.Be3 Nc5=) 10...e5 11.dxe6 Bxe6=.  These are variations from NCO.  No doubt Khalifman has extended these variations and found ways for White to pursue an edge.

2)  9.Nxe5 dxe5 10.Qb3 (This has always been the variation that I thought was the most critical.)10...h6 11.Rd1 Kh8 12.c5 g5 13.Bd2, now 13...a6 is the old move but I think that weakens the queen-side too much.  Of course the point of 13...a6 is to stop Nb5 in preparation for ...Qe8-h5.  However I think Black might be able to do that with either 13...Rb8!? preparing ...Bd7 and only then ...Qe8 stopping Nb5 and Na4 ideas (The old main-line involved Na4 and Ba5 to target c7.  With Black pawns still on c7,b7, and a7, Ba5 by White can usually be safely answered by ...b6.)  Black only plays ...a6 if White plays a4 or possibly if the pawn is attacked with the Queen.  Of course Black change tactics versus some of the White tries. 

Actually its been a long time since I looked at this so this probably isn't even White's main try at advantage anymore!  Also, I don't even know if the above idea (13...Rb8!?) is sound.  I'll let Fritz take a look at it sometime.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Leningrad 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5
Reply #3 - 10/20/04 at 14:26:49
Post Tools
I am quite interested in this line, and I would play it if I thought it were sound.  There was a two-part article in recent NIC Yearbooks trying to rehabilitate it.  The main lines involve banzai attacks against the White king.  Very risky, but one way to play for the full point, and entertaining. 

But in YB 72 (the most recent) somebody wrote in to say that 9. Nxe5  dxe5  10. Qb3 was much better for White, presenting some backup analysis.  Sosonko agreed.   

I haven't had the chance to look at it myself.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: Leningrad 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5
Reply #2 - 10/18/04 at 04:06:27
Post Tools
I think White does best to avoid the capture on e5 and play the immediate 9.Qb3, as recommended by Khalifman in the Kramnik repertoire books.  It keep open the option of bringing the knight to d4, for one thing, and avoids giving black a central pawn front.
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Leningrad 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5
Reply #1 - 10/18/04 at 01:42:28
Post Tools
Do I remember the recent New in Chess yearbooks running a few articles on this line? You might like to check. 

This seems like a fun line for black, although it looks ugly.  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Leningrad 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5
10/17/04 at 21:20:44
Post Tools
1.d4 f5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.d5 Na5 has had some discussion on this site but is there anyone else interested in my preference of 8...Ne5?   

NCO gives 9.Nxe5 dxe5 10.Qb3 h6 11.Rd1 Kh8 12.c5 g5 13.Bd2 a6 14.Na4 as leading to an advantage for White which I agree with, but I think Black can easily improve his play earlier.  If others are interested I'll share my analysis on this.  Would also like to learn what Khalifman and the other materials that cover this variation have to say.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo