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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Playing White... (Read 12392 times)
MNb
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #23 - 07/16/05 at 08:59:23
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"Now if we can only convince White that after d4 d5, he must play 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4."
Oh, I would immediately give up my beloved Iljin-Zjenevsky! BTW, this line plays a role in my Black repertoire via 1.d4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 or Nf6.
  

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castlerock
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #22 - 07/16/05 at 02:29:49
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Ou, Le Canadien.  Peut-etre, Le Quebecois.   

By the way, many players like the French set-up as Black and the QGD set-up as White because they have similar pawn structures and similar ideas.


Similar Pawn Structure *for black*,yes. Similar ideas ? The fact, pawn is firmly on e3 and not on e5 makes them two different islands.

I play 1.d4 and french though.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #21 - 07/15/05 at 23:04:33
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Elspringer,

Now if we can only convince White that after d4 d5, he must play 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4.  Maybe we can make a rule change somewhere? Cheesy

Then again, that would mean that French players actually have to find a way to win in the Burn-Rubinstein lines, the Alekhin-Chatard, or (shudder) the MacCutcheon.
  
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elspringer
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #20 - 07/14/05 at 07:25:06
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Why, 1. d4 and the (Classical) French are the same thing: 1. d4, d5 2. Nc3, Nf6 3. Bg5 and  now 3...e6 4. e4, of course !
  
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MNb
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #19 - 07/11/05 at 05:33:39
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@Smyslov_fan
The only similarity you mention, is the isolated queen's pawn. But even this is superficial.
In the semi-Tarrasch of the QGD Black has his queen's bishop shut in and there is an open c-file.
In the Tarrasch of the QGD White fianchettoes his king's bishop and there is an open c-file.
In the Tarrasch of the French both central files are open.

OK, I have to admit, that there are two more similarities: the player with the IQP very often plays N-K5 and his opponent N-Q4.
But here it ends. In my opinion, two differences are essential: which file is open, e or c; whether the defender - who plays against the IQP - practices a king's fianchetto or not. These are facts, no matters of personal preference.

Still I would say, that 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.exd5 exd5 has more in common with:
The Petrov: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d4 d5 and a quick c4.
The Danish Gambit Declined: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #18 - 07/11/05 at 01:30:32
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Willempie, 

I agree with you.  The French is one of the sharpest, most dynamic of the "semi-open" games.   8)(I use Karpov's definition of semi-open, 1.e4 vs anything but 1..e5 but I realise there are many transpositional possiblities.)   

MNb, 

The similarities between the French and QGD apart from the pawn moves (excuse the descriptive notation) P-K3, P-Q4, P-QB4, go much more than skin deep.  The Tarrasch variation can lead to very similar positions, whether you are discussing the French or the QGD.  Cheesy

The differences are important.  Shocked The extra tempo allows White to develop his problem Q's Bishop (again, excuse the descriptive, but it has its purpose here) outside the pawn chain.  Also, White doesn't have to worry about P-K5.  Yes, these are distinctions, but ones that serve to remind the French player just how actively White has to play against the French to achieve anything more than equality.  8) The similarities have been sufficient for such players as Korchnoi, Mikhail Gurevich, Botvinnik, and other top players.  I guess it's just personal preference whether to focus on the similarities or differences in openings. Undecided
  
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Willempie
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #17 - 07/11/05 at 00:53:07
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Confirmed e4 player, though I now dabble with d4 as well. I dont see why the french is so closed and less agressive than the sicilian. There are not many sharper variations than the Qg4 winawer around after all (dont see the sissy sicilian players sacrifice pawns on g7 and h7 or castle into Qg4 Wink). And in most closed positions it almost always gets blown open with some combination of f6 and c5.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #16 - 07/10/05 at 19:50:54
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Building off of this suggestion, could we also suggest that the French is the most closed of the semi-open games?
  

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Re: Playing White...
Reply #15 - 07/10/05 at 18:17:40
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Myself, I'm a 1. e4 player.  I prefer modest openings that don't require me to study a lot:  the Closed Sicilian, the Advance against the French and Caro, Bishop's against 1...e5, etc.  It's not a dazzling repetoire, but I have fun.

I have a theory why most French players are also 1. d4 players.  A lot of the d4 players I know struggle to find something they like against 1. e4.  If they play the French, many of the lines resemble queen's pawn games (like against the Tarrasch), and many of the other lines where White pushes e5 are unlike any other kind of chess.  Those kind of French positions are so distinctive and self-contained that once they master that kind of position, they don't have to learn any other kind of open or semi-open game.   

I guess the truth of this theory relies on the French being more "distinctive and self-contained" than other replies to 1. e4, which is an argument I'd be happy defending.
  
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MNb
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #14 - 07/09/05 at 22:13:32
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Schwarz in his 1964 book on the Dutch:
Holländer müssen auch gute Franzosen sein!

I like move order tricks. Let me give one:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6
a)4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 a6 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.Bxc5 Nxc5 10.Qd2 Qe7.
b)4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 a6 8.Nf3 c5 9.dxc5 Nc6 10.Qd2 Nxc5.

I have played junior's trick myself against Lo Kim Lin in a rapid game. Lo always plays 1...e5 against 1.e4 and the KI against 1.d4. So I opened 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 d6 and the game lasted only 16 moves.
This is fun, especially as Lo is generally somewhat better than me.
With HgMan I have never quite understood the similarities of the French and the QGD. Where in the latter do you find the structure d4,e5 vs d5,e6 ? Where in the latter Black plays both c5 and f6?
The only similarity is that Queen's Bishop problem, but even the solutions are different.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #13 - 07/09/05 at 20:47:16
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Some players with White try to avoid meeting their pet defences as black, and this could explain why some French defence players prefer to start with 1.d4.  Grin

Having said the above, if you are goint to meet 1.d4 with 1...e6 as MNB claims he does to reach a Classical Dutch, you might as well be a lifetime French player, as your opponent might well play 2.e4. That's the inherent danger in limiting yourself to tranpositional move orders to mainline defences.

There is a humorous story of an agressive player who always Opened with the Sicilian Defence in response to 1.e4 and against the Bird's Opening 1.f4 he would, being true to his style meet this with the From's Gambit.
However one day he came up against a clever junior player, who played a clever trick on him. The junior opened with 1.f4 and sure enough the reply came back 1...e5 and with a wry smile the junior flashed out 2.e4 bypassing his opponents favorite Sicilian defence in favor of a chaotic Kings Gambit, which amusingly left his befuddled opponent 'Out Of Book'. Needless to say the Junior's clever ploy was soon rewarded by the full point.  

So the moral of that story is when preparing an Opening repertoire for either White or Black it is neccessary to be particularly cognizant of move order and tranpositional tricks.

Topster  Grin     

  

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Re: Playing White...
Reply #12 - 07/09/05 at 18:34:42
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I've heard similar recommendations about th QGD, but it never appealed to me.  In the French, there are some thematic breaks that aren't available to Black in the QGD in spite of the similar pawn structure.  Similarities of pawn structure are important, but you might also consider similar kinds of dynamism as well...
  

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Re: Playing White...
Reply #11 - 07/09/05 at 17:19:44
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Ou, Le Canadien.  Peut-etre, Le Quebecois.  

By the way, many players like the French set-up as Black and the QGD set-up as White because they have similar pawn structures and similar ideas.  At least, I took up the French after recognising some of the same ideas that are in the QGD and had it recommended to me for the same reason.


Hmmm... I'll have to look into that. Thanks!
  
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #10 - 07/09/05 at 16:12:01
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Ou, Le Canadien.  Peut-etre, Le Quebecois.   

By the way, many players like the French set-up as Black and the QGD set-up as White because they have similar pawn structures and similar ideas.  At least, I took up the French after recognising some of the same ideas that are in the QGD and had it recommended to me for the same reason.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Playing White...
Reply #9 - 07/09/05 at 09:37:42
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Or Franglais!

Salut!
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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