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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine (Read 44954 times)
Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #31 - 12/08/04 at 13:27:52
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Clouds above "my" new Scandinavian.

I just played on ICC a blitz game with 2... Nf6, 3. Bb5+ Bd7, 4. Bc4 Bg4, 5. f3 Bf5, 6. Nc3 Nbd7, 7. Qe2 Nb6 and amazingly instead of Bb3 my opponent played Bb5+ ...

To my disappointment i was nearly immediately in an dry endgame (without any tactical complications) and honestly speaking - I did go through it afterwards 3 times - I tended to prefer the White side. Sad

Also the database gives these and similar lines in the Nf6-Scandinavians rather good chances for White (62/38 % !) Cry
  
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #30 - 12/08/04 at 13:09:17
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I would call 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3! Bg4?! 4.h3! a real dangerous weapon against the Portugese.
If Black plays 3.Nf3 Nxd5 (what might be best) then White simply transposes with 4.d4 to the usual mainlines where Nf3 follows in any case.
3...Bg4?! should be inferior. Something like 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 Qxd5 6.Qxd5 Nxd5 7.Sc3! Sxc3 8.bxc3 seems to be already a technical win on higher levels and 5...Nxd5 6.Nc3 can´t be much better.
After 4.h3 Bh5 White has a wide choice between 5.Be2, 5.d4 and 5.Bb5 which may all(!) be "+=". - Again after 5.Be2 or 5.d4 Black should transpose to the mainlines with 5...Nxd5 as 5...Qxd5 would offer White a nice kind of the lines with 2...Qxd5 3.d4 (where an early Nf6 can´t satisfie Black, Bonsai mentioned this). After 5.Bb5+ I cannot believe in 5...c6?! but Portugese/Icelandic players may also play that?! So we have 5.Bb5+ Nbd7 6.Nc3! a6 7.Be2 Nb6 8.0-0 Nbxd5 9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.c4 what again favours White.
I do not play 1.e4 anymore in tournament games but in 3-5min blitz I have a 80% score with 3.Nf3 on a 2200 level (sometimes I blunder away my advantage). I have not worked out this line very deeply but to be honestly, I see NOTHING for Black. Aside from playing this in bullet games ...
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #29 - 12/08/04 at 12:10:43
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Quote:
@MNb

Excuse a stupid question, but is 3.Nf3 Bg4 bad for black? 

I suppose you intend 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 and 5.c4 or 5.h3 Bg4 and 6.c4  but isn't black OK after 6...a6 7.Ba4 b5 8.cxb5 Nxd5, at least black seems very active to me.  ???


I think that variation is not about anything specifically tactically. It's about either luring black into one of the Nxd5 lines, after which white can often play d2-d4 and c2-c4-c5 in quite a strong way or about getting black to play Qxd5, after which white doesn't have to play Nc3, here white can also try for a superior version of 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4/Nf3. By transposition there is some analysis of this in the Scandinavian book by Wahls (where he explains why after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 one shouldn't play 3...Nf6, that analysis is also on the Hansen cd).
  
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Dzambus
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #28 - 12/08/04 at 08:53:56
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@Dzambus
thanks for the interesting idea of 5. Nf3 c5 !

Havent looked at it in detail,but would have myself never found this idea,and it scores an impressing 46 % white / 54 % black.


Yes , but after 5...c5  6.d4 is also possible (but I don't think this is the strongest) and you must be prepared for this move. 8)

  
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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #27 - 12/08/04 at 07:33:35
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@alumbrado
true, Black plays the Icelandic with a tempo down. But why then there is still a score of 57 % white vs. 43 % black (elo-average 2220) in over 300 games? So at least at my level it still seems playable.

@alumbrado (2)
you asked on the page before why this aversion against the Caro-Kann Panov. Well, I fall immediately asleep if I see something that looks only little bit like a queens gambit declined. So the Panov setup with d4+c4 vs. d5 causes me already utter boredom.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #26 - 12/08/04 at 07:21:49
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@MNb
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Critical for the Scandinavian Marshall Gambit is 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3! which avoids the Portuguese Variation. Black must either play Nxd5 4.d4 transposing to the 3.d4 main lines or Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qd6 transposing to the 3...Qd6 system of the Classical Scandinavian.


Excuse a stupid question, but is 3.Nf3 Bg4 bad for black? 

I suppose you intend 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 and 5.c4 or 5.h3 Bg4 and 6.c4  but isn't black OK after 6...a6 7.Ba4 b5 8.cxb5 Nxd5, at least black seems very active to me.  ???
  
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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #25 - 12/08/04 at 06:59:54
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@Dzambus
thanks for the interesting idea of 5. Nf3 c5 !

Havent looked at it in detail,but would have myself never found this idea,and it scores an impressing 46 % white / 54 % black.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #24 - 12/08/04 at 06:13:37
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I think there is a bit of a problem with your idea of transposing to the Icelandic Gambit after (1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.c4) 4...e6 - that problem being that after 5.dxe6 Bxe6 you are a tempo down on the normal Icelandic Gambit (you have played Bc8-g4xe6 instead of Bc8xe6).  Now, it *may* be that Black has comething approaching sufficient compensation in the Icelandic proper, but to play it a tempo down is just asking way too much ...
  

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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #23 - 12/08/04 at 05:55:07
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@Dzambus

maybe 6. Qe2 is not dangerous, but anyway it gives White the chance to change Queens.

I am checking the Scandinavian because I want an open position with much tactics. 

To change Queens in move nr. 7 is for sure what I am not searching.
  
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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #22 - 12/08/04 at 05:49:10
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Mnb wrote: 
<Critical for the Scandinavian Marshall Gambit is 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3! which avoids the Portuguese Variation. Black must either play Nxd5 4.d4 transposing to the 3.d4 main lines or Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qd6 transposing to the 3...Qd6 system of the Classical Scandinavian.>

Maybe I am wrong, but I think this is not true:

my line would be in the case of 3. Nf3 Bg4
and after 4. c4 e6 (transposition/Icelandic Gambit)
4. Be2 Nxd5
4. h3 Bh5
all with good scores for black.

Above all must be said that 3. Nf3 happens in the 2...Nf6-Scandinavian in about 11 % of the 12.000 games in Chessbase 8.0, so this is really not a reason for not playing 2...Nf6.
  
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Dzambus
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #21 - 12/08/04 at 05:28:50
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Thanks for your suggestions, they are appreciated.



The only way for White to cause black serious problems seems 3. c4 e6, 4. dxe6 Bxe6, 5. Nf3. Somebody in another thread said 5...Qe7 is best. Would never play this! After 6. Qe2 Nc6, 7. d4 black is either in serious problems or cant avoid (Bg4) that White can change the Queens and then have a game that scores 72 % for White! So I would go for the 5...Sc6
 

I personally think 5...Sc6 gives difficulties for Black: after
6.d4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 

both 7...Ne4 and 7...Qe7 are not equalizing for Black in my opinion.

But there are strong masters who play 5...c5 with some success. I  would  play 5...Qe7 and 6.Qe2 is not so dangerous  , I am rather afraid of 6.Be2, because 

6.Qe2 Nc6 7.d4 Bg4 8.Q:e7+ B:e7 is not so bad for Black in my opinion.
  
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MNb
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #20 - 12/08/04 at 05:16:33
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<The only way for White to cause black serious problems seems 3. c4 e6, 4. dxe6 Bxe6, 5. Nf3.>
This is absolutely not true. As already mentioned by Alumbrado, 3...c6 is a very viable option, when 4.dxc6 is good for Black, 4.d4 and 4.Nc3 transpose to the Caro-Kann Panov Attack. Here I agree with Alumbrado, that the g6 lines are interesting, though a bit dubious.
Critical for the Scandinavian Marshall Gambit is 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3! which avoids the Portuguese Variation. Black must either play Nxd5 4.d4 transposing to the 3.d4 main lines or Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qd6 transposing to the 3...Qd6 system of the Classical Scandinavian.
  

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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #19 - 12/08/04 at 04:57:55
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@Alumbrado thanks for your answer

Yes, this once had to be said: A white player, that is perfect prepared for this one line (of an unusual opening!) that is probably difficult for black, is a rare thing, especially below-2000!!!

I am rated 1850 Elo. I dont know how it is in other countries, but in Austria usually people below 2000 dont care much about opening theory, just a little bit or at least not very deep.

And below 2000 most games are anyway decided by blunders and not by some "slight positional advantage" that a GM finds after 3 days of home analysis!

One chess-master told me one year ago: if you are below 2000, dont care too much about opening theory. This matters only if you are above 2000 and usually play against people above 2000. Better look for your tactical abilities in the middle-game.

I would estimate the likeliness to get at my level the one critical line of the Nf6-Scandinavian on the board, of below 15 % !!!



  
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alumbrado
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #18 - 12/08/04 at 04:23:13
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Even Selby Anderson's highly optimistic (for Black) coverage of the Portuguese/Icelandic complex reckons that Black has problems after 5.Nf3 in the Icelandic - and there are difficulties, too, with some of the lines he gives in the mainstream Portuguese, with improvements for White casting doubt on Black's compensation.

Plaskett's recent book, while generally execrable, is actually quite strong on these lines and makes it quite clear that Black is skating on thin ice.

Having said that, the White player who is fully prepared for these possibilities is, I suspect, a rare thing indeed, especially at the sub-2000 level ... even if they do negotiate the opening successfully the chances are you will get a chance at some stage in the game!

A question - why the aversion to a transposition to a Panov Caro-Kann?   Black has a choice between some solid lines with ...e6 and ...Bb4 which nonetheless are sufficiently unbalanced (there is an IQP at play after all) to offer winning chances to the better player; and the sharper lines with ...g6 which are certainly interesting - and while probably not quite sound, are a darn sight more so than the Icelandic Gambit!
  

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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #17 - 12/08/04 at 03:23:38
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Thanks for your suggestions, they are appreciated.

Well, back to the roots. 
If the Qxd5-Scandi scores bad against the correct White setup, why not have another look at the Nf6-Scandi? I mean, it would be great to have a new opening that from the first moment on makes White play my game and this is the Scandinavian. I at first moment did not want to study the 2...Nf6 because with 4. d4 instead of 4. cxd6 or 4. exd6 White can transpose to the Caro-Kann or French.

The second look showed me that the danger that White transposes, is in the Islandic Gambit very low. At the Scandinavian Gambit (3..c6) the likeliness of a tranpose is very high, at Chessbase 8.0 at about 80 % ! But at the Islandic Gambit (3...e6) only 22 % of people transpose to the French Exchange. And even if they do, you have a boring French Exchange that offers Black immediately a good position with a score of 52 % white to 48 % black.

So why not go for the Nf6-Scandinavian (and the Scandinavian Gambit)? Cheesy

The by far most common third move there is the 3. d4. I went throught all different variations and think that after 3...Bg4 (I think this is called Portugese variation, isnt it?) Black get always a good tactical fighting-position that has good scores for black.

Also after 3. Bb5+ Bd7, 4. Bc4 Bg4 or 4. Be2 Nxd5 etc. black scores good.

The only way for White to cause black serious problems seems 3. c4 e6, 4. dxe6 Bxe6, 5. Nf3. Somebody in another thread said 5...Qe7 is best. Would never play this! After 6. Qe2 Nc6, 7. d4 black is either in serious problems or cant avoid (Bg4) that White can change the Queens and then have a game that scores 72 % for White! So I would go for the 5...Sc6

One basic question remains: does Black get for the pawn (if White keeps it) get enought play or can White stand the black attack and have the better end in the endgame?
  
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