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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine (Read 44957 times)
lnn2
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #46 - 12/11/04 at 00:10:17
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Have been away for awhile and look at the number of new threads in my favourite openings!   Grin
 
To answer the original question: The best thing about the Scandinavian is you get the same type of position every time (i'm referring to 2... Qxd5 here). There are much less strong deviations than in the Alekhine. So if you specialise in the scan, you will be garnering a VERY HUGE amount of practical experience that will more than compensate for the demerits in the opening in itself, or in comparison with the Alekhine.   
 
The plus point for the Alekhine however may be that it is less common than the Scan and has greater surprise value. I play both and always seem to get an easier position out of the Scan. Whereas with the Alekhine I've lost rather disastrously to "harmless" early deviations like 2. Nc3, chase variation etc.  Embarrassed
 
If you don't want to study much, the scan is better. But if you are willing to put in hours I have a suspicion that the Alekhine might be more rewarding... certainly Alekhine die-hards and specialists have a reputation for scoring very well with their opening.  Grin
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #45 - 12/10/04 at 20:47:46
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I didn't even consider 4...Qe6+! (I had thought about 4...Qd6 though.).  That looks like a very good solution.  I think Black can improve on Kaufmans variations after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 (this has been played by some pretty strong players though).
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #44 - 12/10/04 at 18:09:42
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After 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nc3, black doesn't have to play Qa5, surely. Wahls suggests playing 4...Qe6+ followed by exchanging the queens and Nc6 (threatening Nc6-b4).

However this isn't exactly what this thread was originally about, because this variation isn't avaiable after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3, but obviously the situation after 3...Qxd5 is the same as after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Nf6. In those lines white always seems to have a small advantage, he plays 4.d4, but holds back c2-c4 for a while. Black has to be really careful and I'm not sure whether anything convincing has been found for black (you never know why draws occur in tournaments...).
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #43 - 12/10/04 at 17:34:45
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I originally also thought 3.Nf3 was nothing special but then I started looking over the analysis in Kaufman's "The Chess Advantage in Black and White" and started to change my mind.

Martin also has some interesting material on this in his section but in most of the games White seemed to be playing pretty much for only 2 results.

Against 3...Nc6 Kaufman advocates' "4.Nc3 Qa5 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.0-0 0-0-0 7.Re1 a6? (Better was 7...e6 8.d3 Bb4 [else Nd2-c4] 9.Bxc6 Bxc6 10.Ne5 Be8 11.Bd2 Ne7 12.a3.  White kills the bishop pair and retains a nice lead in development.) 8.b4!".  He likes White's chances in all variations stemming from 8.b4.

Against 3...Bg4 I think White should prefer 4.Nc3, as opposed to the Kaufman recommendation of 4.Be2, as I don't think Black is really doing all that well after 4...Qa5 5.h3.

I'm open to suggestions that the above isn't necessarily so bad for Black or of other possibilities for Black that might be better.

Part of my current opinion that 3.Nf3 deserves a "!" is based on that I didn't think White was getting much in the solid variations with ...Bf5.  Perhaps I'm not aware of the best ways for White to play against this with 3.d4.
  
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MNb
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #42 - 12/10/04 at 15:47:48
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Well, I would not call myself an expert on the Classical Scandinavian, but gut feeling tells me that 3.Nf3 can not be critical. Black gets the additional possibility of Qh5. According to Harman and Taulbut 3...Nc6 is a good answer.
  
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TalJechin
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Scandinavian 2...Qxd5 3.Nf3
Reply #41 - 12/10/04 at 12:33:15
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Quote:
As Glenn Snow remarked:

For what its worth I think the biggest threat to the Scandanavian is 3.Nf3! reserving the possibility of c4 before Nc3.


What's the latest on 3.Nf3, I know Wahls recommended 3...Bg4 but in my database the big guys seem to prefer 3...Nf6 and a draw before move 15. 

Though I don't think 3.Nf3 is the biggest threat to the Scandinavian, it can be annoying to meet as black can easily overpress after 3...Bg4. 
What does the experts here think? Is it promising for white or not?  Undecided
  
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Dzambus
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #40 - 12/09/04 at 09:12:55
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Quote:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bc4 Bg4 5.f3 Bf5 (undeveloping with Bc8 does not appeal) 6.Nc3 Nbd7 7.d3 Nb6 8.Bb3 Nbxd5 9.Nxd5 Nxd5 10.Ne2 e6 11.Ng3 Bg6 12.o-o Be7 13.f4 and White has a very nice edge. His plan is simple and straightforward, while Black lacks counterplay.
Maybe I have the move order wrong, because I am typing from memory.


1) 5...Bc8 in this line is not so rare. And this move prevents complicated lines 5...Bf5 6.g4 and 5...Bf5 6.Nc3 Nbd7 7.g4

2) in your line play may continue:13...O-O 14.f5 e:f5 15.N:f5 Bf6 16.Qf3 c6. I am not afraid of isolated d-pawn
and think this position is about equal.
  
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MNb
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #39 - 12/09/04 at 08:44:25
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1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bc4 Bg4 5.f3 Bf5 (undeveloping with Bc8 does not appeal) 6.Nc3 Nbd7 7.d3 Nb6 8.Bb3 Nbxd5 9.Nxd5 Nxd5 10.Ne2 e6 11.Ng3 Bg6 12.o-o Be7 13.f4 and White has a very nice edge. His plan is simple and straightforward, while Black lacks counterplay.
Maybe I have the move order wrong, because I am typing from memory.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Bonsai
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #38 - 12/09/04 at 05:43:35
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I have no idea whether Bg4 or b5 is better, but b7-b5 is a useful move, one can possibly play b5-b4 later in response to white playing Nc3 and the black bishop can often be usefully placed on b7 later on.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #37 - 12/09/04 at 05:29:58
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Quote:
I feel a7-a5 is unnecessary. To be honest I don't know what the point of that move is. It just seems to provoke the reply a2-a3, which is a really useful move for white (as it prevents b5-b4 so that a white knight on c3 won't be molested).


OK, and why don't you like 4...Bg4 instead of 4...b5?
Any forced good line for White after that move?
  
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #36 - 12/09/04 at 05:07:05
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I feel a7-a5 is unnecessary. To be honest I don't know what the point of that move is. It just seems to provoke the reply a2-a3, which is a really useful move for white (as it prevents b5-b4 so that a white knight on c3 won't be molested).
  
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #35 - 12/09/04 at 04:51:00
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Quote:

As far as I know 3...Nbd7 is not satisfactory, but I do like 3...Bd7 4.Bc4 b5 5.Bb3 Bg4.


What do you think: is it better for Black not to play 5...a5 in this line? I still don't know which of the two 5...a5 and 5...Bg4  is better 
???
  
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #34 - 12/09/04 at 04:31:07
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Against 3.Bb5+ Black should either play Bd7 4.Bc4 b5!? or 3...Nbd7, the latter with Portuguese/Icelandic ideas.

As far as I know 3...Nbd7 is not satisfactory, but I do like 3...Bd7 4.Bc4 b5 5.Bb3 Bg4.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #33 - 12/09/04 at 04:23:54
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I do not trust 3.c4 e6 4.dxe6 Bxe6 5.Nf3 c5 because of 6.d4! cxd4 7.Qxd4 and what does Black have for the pawn?

7...Nc6 8.Q:d8 R:d8 
Black has almost full compensation for the pawn here in my opinion. 

for example 9.a3 Bc5 10.b4 Nd4 seems to be only slightly better for White.
  
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MNb
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Re: Opening repertoire: Scandinavian vs. Alekhine
Reply #32 - 12/08/04 at 20:45:16
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Emms in his book on the Scandinavian gives 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.c4 a6 6.Bxd7+ Qxd7 7.d4 and 6.Ba4 and "White has not been forced to compromise the kingside pawn structure".
As I agree with Tracke, only 4...Qxd5 5.Nc3 Qd6 remains, when White's early Nf3 is a slight concession.

Against 3.Bb5+ Black should either play Bd7 4.Bc4 b5!? or 3...Nbd7, the latter with Portuguese/Icelandic ideas.
The gambit move c7-c6 is usually inferior, because it leads to positions similar to the Göring/Danish Gambit with colours reversed and a tempo down.

I do not trust 3.c4 e6 4.dxe6 Bxe6 5.Nf3 c5 because of 6.d4! cxd4 7.Qxd4 and what does Black have for the pawn?
And why be afraid of 5...Qe7 6.Be2 Bxc4 ? Critical is 6.Qe2 Nc6 7.d4 Bg4 or o-o-o.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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