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7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? (Read 58929 times)

Milkman Ex Member	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #21 - 07/10/05 at 12:32:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNoth wrote: "Its hard to take Milkman seriously, he is just quoting computer analysis and evaluation without any input of his own." ..."This is not thinking, this is just watching and waiting." I fully agree! But today I am a bit lazy so I let the computer do the work instead.... Usually I analyse for myself and check with a computer afterwards, which I believe is a good way to analyse. TopNotch wrote: "If Fritz says x after 1min he believes it without question, when Fritz runs a little longer, say 5mins and changes its mind so does he. " This is obviously not true. If I believed fritz after one minute of calculation then why would I let him calculate for 5 minutes??


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #20 - 07/10/05 at 11:54:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Posted by: Milkman Posted on: Today at 08:22:31 hmm, we have a serious problem here : it seems like 13...Nc5 is insufficient due to: 14.Bb5!(a suggestion of fritz) with the threat of 15.Re1. How should black deal with this?? Quote: Posted by: Milkman Posted on: Today at 08:30:29 sorry for posting too early! Now fritz actually suggests 14. Bb5!? d3! 15. Nxc8 Rfxc8 16. d7 Rg8! with equality I agree! Its hard to take Milkman seriously, he is just quoting computer analysis and evaluation without any input of his own. If Fritz says x after 1min he believes it without question, when Fritz runs a little longer, say 5mins and changes its mind so does he. This is not thinking, this is just watching and waiting. Such habits will certainly not help you improve your chess skills and it definetely wouldn't help you solve over the board problems when left to your own devices. Do not let your brain atrophy Milky, Computers are there to assist your thought process not replace it. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Milkman Ex Member	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #19 - 07/10/05 at 10:31:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, it didn't take that long for fritz to find the best line. I just had to analyse a bit deeper before posting my message... Just because a position is equal doesn't mean that it's a dead draw. I agree that there's a lot of dynamism in the position, but black's chances do not seem inferior to white's. Here are some analysis: 14.Nxc8(14.Bb5!? d3! 15.Nxc8[15.Re1? Qb4 leaves Bb5 and b2 hanging] Rfxc8 16.d7 Rg8 with good chances for black, for example: 17.Rc1 Qd5 18.d8=Q Rxd8 19.Bxd8 Rxd8 and black has more than enough compensation for the exchange) d3! 15.Bxd3(15.Re1 dxe2 16.Rxe2 Qc6 is fine for black) Nxd3 16.d7 Qd5 and black does not seem worse, for example: 17.d8=Q Rxd8 18.Bxd8 Rxc8 19.Bh4 Nge5 with equal chances


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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #18 - 07/10/05 at 10:06:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: sorry for posting too early! Now fritz actually suggests 14. Bb5!? d3! 15. Nxc8 Rfxc8 16. d7 Rg8! with equality I agree! Interesting that it should take Fritz five or six minutes to pick up on this line. Hiarcs had it almost immediately... But putting computer evaluations aside, there is a lot of dynamism (not to mention several imbalances) in this position, and it would be silly to call this position completely equal. I still like White's chances after the queens come off the board. White has better access to the open files, retains the bishop pair, and has more space for the pawn. Perhaps the position is relatively equal, but there is plenty of play here with good chances for each side.

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #17 - 07/10/05 at 09:51:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Teyko's post is just further proof that Mikalevski is anti Kings Indian. His updates and the analysis of the games are almost always biased too much in favor of white. I completely agree with Gallagher, who stated on page 111 of his recent book 'Play The KID' that Mikalevski, who plays the KID about as often as Karpov, is much too heavily biased against the KID in his annotations. Further proof of his bias against black is his recent twic article devoted to playing against the KID. In short he is a poor advocate of the Black cause. Toppled TN has a good point here, but I must admit it hasn't bothered me too much. As X points out, the bias toward White can be healthy. As a budding KID player, I'd rather see the positions that pose Black the most difficulty. Now I know where the problems are and can try to address them.

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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Milkman Ex Member	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #16 - 07/10/05 at 07:30:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	sorry for posting too early! Now fritz actually suggests 14. Bb5!? d3! 15. Nxc8 Rfxc8 16. d7 Rg8! with equality I agree!


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Milkman Ex Member	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #15 - 07/10/05 at 07:22:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	hmm, we have a serious problem here : it seems like 13...Nc5 is insufficient due to: 14.Bb5!(a suggestion of fritz) with the threat of 15.Re1. How should black deal with this?? ???


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Teyko Full Member Offline Gambits Dammit Posts: 247 Location: Scotland Joined: 10/01/03 Gender:	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #14 - 07/10/05 at 02:55:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: This is interesting, but am I missing something? Why does 13 Nxc8 get an exclamation mark? Why not the simple 13 cxd6, ruining Black's pawn structure, when the bishop on c8 isn't going anywhere anyway? Does Black have a strong reply here? This is the position in question. After the moves, 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. Be3 Na6 8. O-ONg4 9. Bg5 Qe8 10. c5 exd4 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Ne7+ Kh8 13. cxd6 http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b2r1k/ppp1Npbp/n2P2p1/6... Immediately I thought of 13...cxd6?!. I mean it seems intuitive just to capture the pawn, but it seems that the reason behind 13.cxd6 is to avoid the complications introduced in my prior post against 13. Nxc8! (as advocated by Mikalevski). The point behind 13. cxd6 is that the d6 square is weak and has no defenders so you are practically forced to play a "Rook caputures knight move", effectively gaining a tempo. http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b2r1k/pp2Npbp/n2p2p1/6B... 13...cxd6?! 14. Nxc8 Raxc8 15. Nd2! and now regardless of Qe5 or Qf5 16. Bxg4! wins an exchange. So I had to look elsewhere and Shredder8 and Fritz 8 both agree on Nc5! just as if on 13.Nxc8. It took me a few minutes to actually understand this move but I think it makes a lot of sense. 13...Nc5! http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b2r1k/ppp1Npbp/3P2p1/2n...


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X God Member Offline Education is a system of imposed ignorance.Chomsky Posts: 571 Joined: 10/04/03	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #13 - 07/09/05 at 22:14:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, I think bias on both sides motivates the development of theory, so I don't mind having skeptics against the "cause." For instance, Korchnoi has played an important role in the development of KID theory. Without controversy, chess would be dead!

	Power to the People!&&http://www.gravel2008.us/ http://www.nationalinitiative.us/&&Mike Gravel for President 2008
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Darthkrieger YaBB Newbies Offline I'm your Daddy. Posts: 22 Location: Missouri Joined: 07/06/05 Gender:	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #12 - 07/09/05 at 22:11:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Geof Strayer-- I have been wondering whether to play ....Nc6 or ...Na6 myself. Your simple logic really cleared that up. I shall play ...Na6 for now because I am learning a lot of openings as it is In short, you are my hero--lol


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #11 - 07/09/05 at 21:31:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Teyko's post is just further proof that Mikalevski is anti Kings Indian. His updates and the analysis of the games are almost always biased too much in favor of white. I completely agree with Gallagher, who stated on page 111 of his recent book 'Play The KID' that Mikalevski, who plays the KID about as often as Karpov, is much too heavily biased against the KID in his annotations. Further proof of his bias against black is his recent twic article devoted to playing against the KID. In short he is a poor advocate of the Black cause. Toppled

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #10 - 07/09/05 at 18:57:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is interesting, but am I missing something? Why does 13 Nxc8 get an exclamation mark? Why not the simple 13 cxd6, ruining Black's pawn structure, when the bishop on c8 isn't going anywhere anyway? Does Black have a strong reply here?

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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Milkman Ex Member	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #9 - 07/09/05 at 18:01:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	WOW!! Nice discovery Teyko! Looks like the refutation of 10.c5...


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Teyko Full Member Offline Gambits Dammit Posts: 247 Location: Scotland Joined: 10/01/03 Gender:	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #8 - 07/07/05 at 16:04:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	I just learned how to post diagrams so I thought that I would use this feature to ask a serious question about the Na6 variation in the game of Cheparinov vs. Matmoros given in the update before last. We begin in this position after the moves of 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. Be3 Na6 8. O-ONg4 9. Bg5 Qe8 10. c5 exd4 11. Nd5 http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b1qrk1/ppp2pbp/n2p2p1/2... Now Black continues with 11...dxc5 which G.M. Mikalevski argues is interesting, but I believe the best move to be 11...Qe4 http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b2rk1/ppp2pbp/n2p2p1/2P... and now if 12. Ne7+ Kh8 13.Nxc8! instead of 13...Raxc8 as suggested by GM Mikalevski, we play13...Nxc5!! http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1N2r1k/ppp2pbp/3p2p1/2n3...


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basqueknight Ex Member	Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? Reply #7 - 04/29/05 at 20:25:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Na6 is a theory avoider. the lines with Nc6 are very well known and you better know more than som,e basic ideas if your gonna play it.


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