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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? (Read 58924 times)
Milkman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #36 - 07/11/05 at 19:25:51
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To summarise, I think it's fair to say that black has good chances after 11...Qxe4 as long as he is careful and knows what to do. In this variation it's especially important to always be on the look-out for possible piece- and exchange sacrifices... Wink
  
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Milkman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #35 - 07/11/05 at 09:07:28
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Perhaps direct aggression is not White's best here.  What about 12 Bc4 Kh8 13 Rc1 ?


Against this I suggest: 13...Ne5 14.Nxe5 dxe5 and black is fine, for example: 15.Be7 c6! 16.Re1 Qf5 17.Bd3 Qe6 18.Bxf8 Bxf8 19.Bxa6(19.Nf4 Qf6 20.Bxa6 Qxf4 also gives black good compensation) cxd5 and black has very good compensation for the exchange Wink
  
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HgMan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #34 - 07/11/05 at 07:09:07
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Perhaps direct aggression is not White's best here.  What about 12 Bc4 Kh8 13 Rc1 ?
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Milkman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #33 - 07/11/05 at 06:20:45
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12 Bc4 Kh8 13 Re1 Qf5 14 cxd6 Be6 15 Ne7!? still looks okay for White.



Well, white may be OK, but so is black! After 15...Qc5 this variation simply transposes to the one I previously posted

Quote:

Here are some sample variations: 13.cxd6(13.Be7 Be6! 14.Bxf8 Rxf8 gives black good compensation for the exchange) ...Be6 14.Re1 Qf5 15.Ne7 Qc5 16.Bxa6(16.Bxe6? fxe6 is good for black, for example: 17.dxc7 Qxc7 18.h3 Rxf3! 19.hxg4 Rf7) ...bxa6 17.h3 Qxd6! 18.hxg4 Rae8(intending ...Rxe7 or ...c5) with good compensation for the piece(g4 is weak, the knight on e7 is stuck and black has a supported passed d-pawn). 



  
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HgMan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #32 - 07/10/05 at 21:46:25
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Due to problems in the 12...d3!? 13.Ne7+ Kh8 14.Bxd3 Qb4 15.Nd5! variation I went looking for some improvement... And I found one Wink: 12...Kh8! The point is that 13.Ne7 is now pointless and can be met by 13...Ne5(or something like that). Also: now the queen can go to f5 without having to worry about a check on e7. 
Here are some sample variations: 13.cxd6(13.Be7 Be6! 14.Bxf8 Rxf8 gives black good compensation for the exchange) ...Be6 14.Re1 Qf5 15.Ne7 Qc5 16.Bxa6(16.Bxe6? fxe6 is good for black, for example: 17.dxc7 Qxc7 18.h3 Rxf3! 19.hxg4 Rf7) ...bxa6 17.h3 Qxd6! 18.hxg4 Rae8(intending ...Rxe7 or ...c5) with good compensation for the piece(g4 is weak, the knight on e7 is stuck and black has a supported passed d-pawn). 

Any comments on this??


Though, perhaps White doesn't need to rush into 15 Ne7:

12 Bc4 Kh8 13 Re1 Qf5 14 cxd6 (can White even do better here?) cxd6 15 Bf4 might also be enough for White to hold a small advantage, though we should maybe look carefully at 15 ... Nb4, which seems to lead toward complications I haven't the energy to explore this evening.  There just seem to be a lot of ways for White to pose Black some problems.  None of them decisive, mind you, but they do seem to give Black trouble...
  
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HgMan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #31 - 07/10/05 at 21:35:54
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Upon reflection, this second line could be trouble.  I have 17 Bxf7 d3 18 Bh4 (protecting f2--maybe Qd2, but that doesn't look as attractive) Ne5 (18 ... Nc5 looks murky and could work here: 19 Bxg6 maybe?) 19 Nxe5 dxe5 20 Qxd3 Rxf7 21 Nxc8 Qxb2 22 Qc4 Rf8 23 Nd6.  I don't know that I like White's position as much as I have in earlier lines...
  
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HgMan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #30 - 07/10/05 at 19:43:35
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Quote:
Due to problems in the 12...d3!? 13.Ne7+ Kh8 14.Bxd3 Qb4 15.Nd5! variation I went looking for some improvement... And I found one Wink: 12...Kh8! The point is that 13.Ne7 is now pointless and can be met by 13...Ne5(or something like that). Also: now the queen can go to f5 without having to worry about a check on e7. 
Here are some sample variations: 13.cxd6(13.Be7 Be6! 14.Bxf8 Rxf8 gives black good compensation for the exchange) ...Be6 14.Re1 Qf5 15.Ne7 Qc5 16.Bxa6(16.Bxe6? fxe6 is good for black, for example: 17.dxc7 Qxc7 18.h3 Rxf3! 19.hxg4 Rf7) ...bxa6 17.h3 Qxd6! 18.hxg4 Rae8(intending ...Rxe7 or ...c5) with good compensation for the piece(g4 is weak, the knight on e7 is stuck and black has a supported passed d-pawn). 

Any comments on this??


12 Bc4 Kh8 13 Re1 Qf5 14 cxd6 Be6 15 Ne7!? still looks okay for White.

12 Bc4 Kh8 13 Re1 Qf5 14 cxd6 cxd6 15 Ne7!? Qc5 16 Rc1 Qb6 17 Bxf7!? and I still prefer White.
  
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Milkman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #29 - 07/10/05 at 18:53:06
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Due to problems in the 12...d3!? 13.Ne7+ Kh8 14.Bxd3 Qb4 15.Nd5! variation I went looking for some improvement... And I found one Wink: 12...Kh8! The point is that 13.Ne7 is now pointless and can be met by 13...Ne5(or something like that). Also: now the queen can go to f5 without having to worry about a check on e7. 
Here are some sample variations: 13.cxd6(13.Be7 Be6! 14.Bxf8 Rxf8 gives black good compensation for the exchange) ...Be6 14.Re1 Qf5 15.Ne7 Qc5 16.Bxa6(16.Bxe6? fxe6 is good for black, for example: 17.dxc7 Qxc7 18.h3 Rxf3! 19.hxg4 Rf7) ...bxa6 17.h3 Qxd6! 18.hxg4 Rae8(intending ...Rxe7 or ...c5) with good compensation for the piece(g4 is weak, the knight on e7 is stuck and black has a supported passed d-pawn). 

Any comments on this??
  
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HgMan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #28 - 07/10/05 at 17:49:47
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HgMan wrote:
How is Black out of trouble?  Even something as relatively simplistic as 15 h3 gives Black trouble (and I'm sure that White can do better). 15 ... Ne5 16 Nxe5 dxe5 17 Nd5 Qxb2 (17 ... Qxc5? 18 Bxa6 bxa6 19 Be7!) 18 Bxa6 bxa6 19 Rb1 and White looks very strong. 
 
Answer:
After 15.h3 black has the stunning ...Nxc5!! 16.hxg4 Be6 with good compensation for the piece. Black is about to get a third pawn for the piece an the knight on e7 is stuck. 

However, 15.Nd5! looks critical: ...Qxc5 16.Bxa6 bxa6 17.Rc1 and black is in trouble Embarrassed Any suggestions?? 


This was posted as I was writing my last note, so my response was to Teyko's message.  I think, however, that 15 h3 stands up to the scrutiny posted here by Milkman--I don't think that the knight on e7 is particularly trapped.  White's pieces are rather nicely coordinated in that respect.

I'll have to give 15 Nd5 a look, but it was one of the moves I had in mind, when I thought that White was okay after 14 ... Qb4.  Does Black have anything better than 15 ... Qxc5 16 Bxa6 bxa6 ?  15 ... Qxb2 maybe?
  
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HgMan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #27 - 07/10/05 at 17:40:07
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Believe me, I want to buy into this, but I'm just not seeing it.  15 ... Nxc5 does look better: 15 ... Nxc5 16 hxg4  Be6 17 Re1 Qxb2 18 Rc1 (don't stop your analysis so soon) Qxa2 19 Bb1 and with the extra tempo, White will go poaching for pawns.  I'm thinking about Nd4 and Nd5 (both likely with tempo), though 20 Nf5 looks pretty cunning (try this on for size: 20 Nf5 gxf5 21 gxf5 Bb3 22 Rxc5 Bxd1 23 Rxa5 Bc3 24 Rxd1 Bxa5 25 Bf6+ and those extra pawns don't look so significant--Black can probably do better on move 20, but I just wanted to illustrate).  All this to say that extra material can often be a target and one shouldn't always trust Fritz; maybe Black can find a better continuation instead of 18 ... Qxa2.  It's much too easy to stop digging once you have the extra material--the bigger task is to keep analyzing until you're sure you can secure it and put it to work.

That's not to say I'm closing the book on this line--far from it--but I think this thread needs a devil's advocate, else our optimism might take us over the top.  I do like Teyko's Nxc5 idea, but I want to make sure it works.

As for the advantages of 7 ... Na6, I didn't suggest that it was unplayable, but only that I wasn't comfortable with it.  To suggest that 7 ... Na6 prevents b4 is sort of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Is the Bayonet Attack really that dangerous?  Standard praxis wouldn't say so...
  
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Milkman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #26 - 07/10/05 at 17:37:44
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HgMan wrote:
How is Black out of trouble?  Even something as relatively simplistic as 15 h3 gives Black trouble (and I'm sure that White can do better). 15 ... Ne5 16 Nxe5 dxe5 17 Nd5 Qxb2 (17 ... Qxc5? 18 Bxa6 bxa6 19 Be7!) 18 Bxa6 bxa6 19 Rb1 and White looks very strong. 
 
Answer:
After 15.h3 black has the stunning ...Nxc5!! 16.hxg4 Be6 with good compensation for the piece. Black is about to get a third pawn for the piece an the knight on e7 is stuck. 

However, 15.Nd5! looks critical: ...Qxc5 16.Bxa6 bxa6 17.Rc1 and black is in trouble Embarrassed Any suggestions?? 
 
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #25 - 07/10/05 at 16:52:54
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How is Black out of trouble?  Even something as relatively simplistic as 15 h3 gives Black trouble (and I'm sure that White can do better). 15 ... Ne5 16 Nxe5 dxe5 17 Nd5 Qxb2 (17 ... Qxc5? 18 Bxa6 bxa6 19 Be7!) 18 Bxa6 bxa6 19 Rb1 and White looks very strong.

Tactics aside, White's position simply looks more comfortable.  Its pieces are well-placed, while Black's bishops aren't doing much and Black's knight is sitting on the rim with little chance of getting into the game anytime soon.  White's major pieces are connected and have open lines to exploit.  Black has a lot of work to do.

Returning to the original question, 7 ... Na6 might have less theory attached to it, but I think we're seeing here (in spite of Teyko's best efforts and interesting 13 ... Nxc5) that Black's knight can get stuck on the edge of the board.  I don't mean to suggest dogmatically that 7 ... Na6 is bad, but I would be concerned about being lured into lines where it doesn't get to have much impact on the game.  7 ... Nc6 comes with a bundle of theory, but are Black's positions necessarily more difficult to play?  Black works toward the thematic f5 break and attempts what ought to be a familiar kingside attack.  Plenty of theory, but at least the plan is a relatively familiar one...



Let me say two things: First, I don't think that White's position is more comfortable which I will demonstrate below and secondly, 7...Na6 serves a very useful function in that it inhibits b4 the main move that seems to be the most worrisome for black in the Nc6 bayonet lines.

Hgman, you argue that white is better from the following position.


1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. Be3 Na6 8. O-O Ng4 9. Bg5 Qe8 10. c5 exd4 11.Nd5 Qxe4  12.Bc4 d3! 13. Ne7+ Kh8 14. Bxd3 Qb4
15. h3!?   

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b2r1k/ppp1Npbp/n2p2p1/2...


I suggest 15...Nxc5!! 16. hxg4  Be6 17. Re1 Qxb2 

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4r1k/ppp1Npbp/3pb1p1/2n3...

We can see from the position that white is forced to play 18. Rb1 or 18.Rc1 as any other move allows black to play 18...Qxa1, so Black picks up the pawn on a2.
With this said I think it is white with the problems in the position. For one piece I have 4 pawns and doubled g-pawns.
  
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HgMan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #24 - 07/10/05 at 16:13:16
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I think it's best to play 12...d3! to get some space for the queen, for example: 13.Ne7+ Kh8 14.Bxd3 Qb4 and black is out of trouble 8)


How is Black out of trouble?  Even something as relatively simplistic as 15 h3 gives Black trouble (and I'm sure that White can do better). 15 ... Ne5 16 Nxe5 dxe5 17 Nd5 Qxb2 (17 ... Qxc5? 18 Bxa6 bxa6 19 Be7!) 18 Bxa6 bxa6 19 Rb1 and White looks very strong.

Tactics aside, White's position simply looks more comfortable.  Its pieces are well-placed, while Black's bishops aren't doing much and Black's knight is sitting on the rim with little chance of getting into the game anytime soon.  White's major pieces are connected and have open lines to exploit.  Black has a lot of work to do.

Returning to the original question, 7 ... Na6 might have less theory attached to it, but I think we're seeing here (in spite of Teyko's best efforts and interesting 13 ... Nxc5) that Black's knight can get stuck on the edge of the board.  I don't mean to suggest dogmatically that 7 ... Na6 is bad, but I would be concerned about being lured into lines where it doesn't get to have much impact on the game.  7 ... Nc6 comes with a bundle of theory, but are Black's positions necessarily more difficult to play?  Black works toward the thematic f5 break and attempts what ought to be a familiar kingside attack.  Plenty of theory, but at least the plan is a relatively familiar one...
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Milkman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #23 - 07/10/05 at 14:16:51
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OK, back to the board! Hmm... The logical 12...Be6 fails to: 13.Ne7+ Kh8 14. Bd3! Sad
I think it's best to play 12...d3! to get some space for the queen, for example: 13.Ne7+ Kh8 14.Bxd3 Qb4 and black is out of trouble 8)
  
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HgMan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #22 - 07/10/05 at 12:44:42
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Back to the board, gentlemen.

I think it's fair to say that Teyko's suggestion of 11 ... Qxe4 is interesting and worth a go, so let's give it a proper look without the sniping.  What about the simple and quiet 12 Bc4 ?  White's threatening Re1 and Ne7+.  I don't think it's winning, and I haven't given it a lot of thought, but it looks as though White might be able to preserve a minor, but lasting, advantage...
  
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