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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? (Read 58907 times)
Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #6 - 12/15/04 at 18:04:41
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I appreciate your honesty. I have looked at the lines in question for both of the variations and have found equal positions in both.

IN the Nc6 variation it seems that white has hope with the Bayonet attack centering on 13. Bb2, but it seems that Gallagher is correct (or at least Fritz 8, Shredder8 and Hiarcs 9) seem to agree that black is slightly better in the Dautov-Kindermann game that resulted in a draw; and as to the improvement that no one knows in this line by Shirov, perhaps a rook move to e1 or e2 so that Black playing d5 doesn't get a tempo, is just equal. 
I don't know.

In the 7.Na6 variations, it looks like black is also holding on very well, but in lines with 8.Re1 and the c5 pawn sac we have dead equal positions. The dynamic play seems limited due to the need to hold the postion. This is fine as it doesn't seem black is worse, however, the recommendation of Mikhalevski in the Volkov-Nakamura game of 19...Rc8 does seem to be accurate, but again you are looking at an equal position after 20.Qa5 Nc6 21. Qb5. So I really do not know.
  
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Geof Strayer
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #5 - 12/15/04 at 13:27:49
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I don't know how White proves an advantage against the ...Na6 lines these days, they seem to be doing very well recently.  I have played the White side against this variation several times recently, and I really don't see any advantage for White in the c5 sacrifice lines, particularly the positions where the Knights are exchanged on c7 or where Black sacrifices the exchange.  So I would tend to agree with Gallagher that such positions are = or unclear, rather than +=, and this conclusion seems to be borne out by the available games.

I feel much more optimistic about White's position in the Bayonet Attack, although this could have more to do with my style than anything else.  Still, I do get the impression that Black is still under some pressure in certain lines.  Once again, recent games seem to support this impression.

If I had to summarize the two lines in a few words it would be as follows:

The Nc6 line is sharper, well-suited for attacking players, and requires knowledge of a large amount of theory.  Black is under a little pressure in the Bayonet Attack, but is getting closer to finding satisfactory answers against it.  All other variations after Nc6 seem okay for Black at present.

The Na6 line is more positional, and is well-suited for players who don't want to learn a huge amount of theory.  Whether White can prove any advantage after Na6 is currently an open question.

If I were going to play the King's Indian as Black (which I used to do many years ago, but without knowing much theory) I would choose the Na6 lines without hesitation.  First, more time would be available to study other variations, so a complete repertoire could be learned more quickly.  Second, I could always pick up the Nc6 lines later if problems arose in the Na6 lines.  Third, the Na6 lines do not appear to be having any serious problems at the moment, and are proving extremely resilient.

Those are just my thoughts, as a player of the White side of the King's Indian.  Others might reasonably disagree with them.

         - Geof
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #4 - 12/15/04 at 12:19:04
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I don't know it all seems complicated, but Gallagher seems to see 8. Re1 and the c5 pawn sac played in Volkin and Nakamura as serious tests. Well let me amend my latter statement. Gallagher gives Nakamura's line active chances for Black while Mikalevski disagrees and sees white with active chances and a slight advantage.
  
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Paul Hopwood
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #3 - 12/15/04 at 09:50:47
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I personally believe that the Bayonet Attack isn't that scary, but that it just leads to relatively unusual positions for the die-hard KID player.  Obviously this can be cured with practice, or you can stick to the user-friendly 7...Na6.

Regards

Paul Hopwood
  
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JEGutman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #2 - 12/15/04 at 01:38:43
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I mean the bayonet is scary to face in some lines, certainly a lot of theory as well, you must also consider the Mar Del Plata variation ( I think that's what it's called) after d4 nf6 c4 g6 nc3 Bg7 e4 d6 nf3 0-0 Be2 e5 0-0 Nc6 d5 Ne7 Ne1 Nd7 Be3 f5 f3 f4 Bf2 g5 a4!? I've seen some analysis that looks pretty clean suggesting that a5 is the only chance to survive and even that is not doing so well, white's queenside play is just so fast and blacks kingside attack tends to be inadequate.
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #1 - 12/13/04 at 20:30:55
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When reading questions like this, I always think of the comment of Tsjigorin: what is winning for White today is refuted tomorrow (very free quote). Another authority who scoffed at the truth in openings was Alekhine: "Madame la theorie ....".
As soon as we all know the truth in chess, we should switch to Go.
I do not want to insult, I only want to explain why such questions are impossible to answer.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Teyko
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7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
12/13/04 at 19:35:23
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I am just wondering what is the realness of these two moves. 
Granted from reading Gallagher's new book, 7...Na6 requires a lot less memorization of theory, and Gallagher himself and Nakamura both play 7...Na6, but does this mean it is superior?

Is the Bayonet Attack really that scary or serious to frighten Black. I know there is concern about 13.Bb2 but isn't the recommended decline of the rook sac with 17... Nf5 enough? 

I am just curious, it seems that 7...Nc6 is sharper but is this only because of its infamy, rather than the evaluation of the postion? I mean when I look at the c5 pawn sac in the 7...Na6 line that is remarked upon in Volkov-Nakamura and Mikalevski-Miroshnichenko I don't know whether or not it is more or less playable for Black than the 13. Bb2 line with Shirov's improvement. 

Though it seems that in the Volkov-Nakamura lines that Black could also try 19...Rc8 instead of playing 19...Rf7.   
Both Shredder and Fritz 8 believe the position to be equal after the queen sac on c8 advocated by Mikhalevski on the site.

Just wondering what some other king's indian players thoughts were?
  
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