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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? (Read 58884 times)
Milkman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #51 - 08/12/05 at 15:42:36
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What about the position after 20...Bf8 21.b4 a6(I don't like ...Qa4 22.a3 Nc6) 22.a4 Rc8 23.Qd2!?(23.Qxc8!? is very interesting but black should be OK if he knows what to do) ...Rd7 24.Qb2 Undecided I have looked at this for a while, but I am not sure what is the best way forward. Black should probably choose between ...Nc6 and ...Nf7. White has a space advantage, but black seems no worse... What do you guys think? Are there any improvements earlier in this line or should black stick to this variation?


Anyone got an opinion about this? Roll Eyes
  
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Milkman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #50 - 08/06/05 at 17:46:42
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yes yes, I saw that, very nice! Cheesy in that variation white can, of course, trouble black a bit more with 15.Bxa6(instead of 15.Nxc8) ...bxa6 16.Rc1, but after ...Qb5(16...Qb6 17.Nd5 Qxb2 18.Re2 is worse) black still has a clear edge Wink
I don't think 10.c5 is very frigthening any more!
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #49 - 08/06/05 at 16:00:17
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Hey Milkman did you see my anaysis against 12.Bc4. I found a solid way for Black to win if you were interested.
  
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Milkman
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #48 - 08/06/05 at 12:46:44
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What about the position after 20...Bf8 21.b4 a6(I don't like ...Qa4 22.a3 Nc6) 22.a4 Rc8 23.Qd2!?(23.Qxc8!? is very interesting but black should be OK if he knows what to do) ...Rd7 24.Qb2 Undecided I have looked at this for a while, but I am not sure what is the best way forward. Black should probably choose between ...Nc6 and ...Nf7. White has a space advantage, but black seems no worse... What do you guys think? Are there any improvements earlier in this line or should black stick to this variation?
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #47 - 08/06/05 at 03:46:04
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I think that white has to be very careful or he/she may find themselves down a point. I will focus on 14. Qc1 first as this seems to be the most testing line at the moment--there hasn't been a game played with 14. Nd5 to my knowledge but I will would recommend 14...Ne6 as to transpose to the 14.Qc1 lines.   


We begin with these moves:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 e5 7. Be3 Na6 8. O-O Ng4 9. Bg5 Qe8 10. dxe5 dxe5 11. h3  f6 12. Bd2 Nh6 13.c5 Nxc5 

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b1qrk1/ppp3bp/5ppn/2n1p...


14. Qc1 Nf7 15. Nd5 Ne6 16.Nxc7  Nxc7 17. Qxc7 Nd8  18. Rfc1 Be6 19. Be3  Rf7 20. Qc3 this is the critical position for Black!

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r2nq1k1/pp3rbp/4bpp1/4p3/...

Here play could continue with 20...Nc6 (Volkov-Nakamura-2004) or  20...Bf8 (Mikalevski-Miroshnichenko-2004)   

Against 20.Qc5 I would recommend 20...Bf8 with the ideas of Nc6 and a6 for Black.

P.S: I knew you would chose this variation Smyslov_Fan. I personally like 20...Bf8 more than Nakamura's Nc6, so show me where you think the problem lies after 20...Bf8. It is my contention that Black equalizes quite easily after this move.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #46 - 08/05/05 at 23:55:21
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(Bear in mind that we are already 13 moves into a complicated variation!)
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #45 - 08/05/05 at 23:53:51
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Teyko, 

It's been less than a week.  Okay, okay.  Here's what I consider to be the main variation:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Nf3 e5 7.0-0 Na6 8.Be3 Ng4 9.Bg5 Qe8 10.dxe5 dxe5

and now:  11.h3 f6!?
(Nunn deals with 11...h6 in The New Classical King's Indian (1997) pp.106-111) 12.Bd2 Nh6

Now White has a few choices, but for argument sake, let's look at 13.c5!? If 13...Nxc5 both 14.Qc1! and 14.Nd5 look good. 

What do you think?
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #44 - 08/05/05 at 22:35:40
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come on, smyslov fan....You should have a position in mind if you are claiming that white is better.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #43 - 07/31/05 at 22:28:48
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LOL!!  Grin

I like that

Top Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #42 - 07/31/05 at 21:36:28
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Sounds good, 

I'll send you one in the near future!
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #41 - 07/31/05 at 01:48:32
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Give me a position Smyslov Fan in the 10.dxe5 line that you think challenges Black and we can work from there.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #40 - 07/30/05 at 22:45:16
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Teyko, 

You're right, 16...f6 coupled with ...Qf7 just wins for Black.

I've found a line (14...Qxc5 15.Bxa6 bxa6 16.Rc1 Qb6 17.Nd5!?) in which White is barely hanging on, but why bother?  White sacked the pawn with winning in mind, not with the idea of scraping hard for a draw two pawns down.

There are almost certainly improvements for White in the 10.c5?! line, but White has plenty of game in 10.dxe5 variation.
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #39 - 07/30/05 at 13:00:44
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WOW!  

It's fantastic to see such concrete analysis in this forum!  I know I'm jumping in rather late, but here goes....

I wonder first at White's move order 7.Be3 (Gligoric) is less flexible in my opinion than castling immediately.  If White plays 7.0-0, he invites 7...Nc6, and I like the thought that White has at least three good moves at his disposal.

Secondly, I am very suspicious of 10.c5 when 10.d5 or 10.de5! still looks fine for White.

However, looking at the analysis, it seems that White doesn't take advantage of the possibilities of trading off the dangerous light squared bishop in various lines.  I like the latest line that teyko has given for Black, but I wonder if White can still gambit the c-pawn since that seems to be the whole point of the variation.

Here's my idea (I haven't checked it with Fritz yet, so it's probably got major problems):

12....Kh8 looks ingenious if Black can afford the time, but after 13.Re1 Qf5 14. Ne7!? (instead of 14cd6?!) Qc5 15.Nc8 Qc4 16.Ne7 followed by 17.h3 or Rc1 White may just have enough compensation for the material lost because Black's remaining minors are out of action.  Yes, I know that the Ne7 has nowhere to go at the moment, but it's a bloody big nuisance there and may require an exchange sac to get rid of it.

Anyway, I'd like to do some serious analysis of 10.de5 de5 which I always thought was the critical test of 9.Qe8 when you're ready to move on from 10.c5?!



I disagree with your assesment of the position Smyslov Fan.  We begin with this position.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. Be3 Na6 8. O-O Ng4 9. Bg5 Qe8 10. c5 exd4 11.Nd5 Qxe4  12.Bc4 Kh8 13 Re1 Qf5 now Smyslov Fan argues that 14. Ne7!? (instead of 14. cxd6?!) Qc5 15.Nc8 Qc4 16.Ne7 provides white with possible compensation for pawns. 

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4r1k/ppp1N1bp/n2p1pp1/6B...

After 16...f6 white doesn't have anything to look forward to.

17. Rc1 Qf7 is better for black because he will play Ne5 on the next move. Eliminating the protection for the trapped knight.

17. h3 Ne5 (This helps black get where he wants anyway disconnecting the rook from the knight.)  and regardless of where the bishop moves on move 18.(Bd2, Bh4 or Bf4) black plays 18...Rae8! 19.b3 Qf7 and black is just winning. 

Thanks for the ear of analysis...another brotha making it 

Teyko XL
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #38 - 07/30/05 at 11:34:37
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WOW!   

It's fantastic to see such concrete analysis in this forum!  I know I'm jumping in rather late, but here goes....

I wonder first at White's move order 7.Be3 (Gligoric) is less flexible in my opinion than castling immediately.  If White plays 7.0-0, he invites 7...Nc6, and I like the thought that White has at least three good moves at his disposal.

Secondly, I am very suspicious of 10.c5 when 10.d5 or 10.de5! still looks fine for White.

However, looking at the analysis, it seems that White doesn't take advantage of the possibilities of trading off the dangerous light squared bishop in various lines.  I like the latest line that teyko has given for Black, but I wonder if White can still gambit the c-pawn since that seems to be the whole point of the variation.

Here's my idea (I haven't checked it with Fritz yet, so it's probably got major problems):

12....Kh8 looks ingenious if Black can afford the time, but after 13.Re1 Qf5 14. Ne7!? (instead of 14cd6?!) Qc5 15.Nc8 Qc4 16.Ne7 followed by 17.h3 or Rc1 White may just have enough compensation for the material lost because Black's remaining minors are out of action.  Yes, I know that the Ne7 has nowhere to go at the moment, but it's a bloody big nuisance there and may require an exchange sac to get rid of it.

Anyway, I'd like to do some serious analysis of 10.de5 de5 which I always thought was the critical test of 9.Qe8 when you're ready to move on from 10.c5?!
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #37 - 07/29/05 at 15:11:30
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12 Bc4 Kh8 13 Re1 Qf5 14 cxd6 Be6 15 Ne7!? still looks okay for White.

12 Bc4 Kh8 13 Re1 Qf5 14 cxd6 cxd6 15 Ne7!? Qc5 16 Rc1 Qb6 17 Bxf7!? and I still prefer White.


I believe the first line is the most correct plan for Black at this point.  This analysis follows from the following position. 

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. Be3 Na6 8. O-O Ng4 9. Bg5 Qe8 10. c5 exd4 11.Nd5 Qxe4  12.Bc4 Kh8 13 Re1 Qf5 14 cxd6 Be6 15 Ne7!? Qc5! (It is my contention that this move equalizes immediately for Black.)

This is a dynamic postion and hinges on the Knight sac on f2.

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4r1k/ppp1Npbp/n2Pb1p1/2q...

16. Bxa6 bxa6 17. h3 Nxf2! with equality as the Black queen threatens the discovery and is centralized in comparison to white's uncoordinated pieces. 18. Kxf2 Qxd6 19.Qc1 (this looks like the only move that keeps white in the game) d3!? (Opening the h8-a1 diagonal) I like Black here. 

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4r1k/p1p1Npbp/p2qb1p1/6B...

If anyone disagrees with my analysis or the reason I used to explain the moves, feel free express yourself. 
I'm out....Peace.
  
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