Greetings,

Teyko wrote on 07/07/05 at 16:04:07:


A very interesting discussion!

When I saw this last night, I had intended posting but there was so much to consider, I decided to leave it till now.

Firstly, I should say that I'm a "White-sider". Also, I don't play the Classical KID - well, I did once as White ("...a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...") in a Rapid tournament and won - both the game and the tournament on 1^st=.  

Also, I apologise for "raking over old coals"...

My initial thought on seeing Teyko's 11...,Qxe4 was that it could be called the "Teyko Poisoned Pawn Variation".

White has a number of possible moves.

The most obvious being 12 Nxe7+, Kh8; 13 Bd3, Qe6; 14 Re1, Qd7 and the queen escapes capture.

Following on from this, the idea of 12 Bc4, to take away e6 as an escape square suggested itself - honestly, I saw this before scrolling down to HgMan's post! However, the queen can escape via f5.

You're already familiar with the 12 Bc4 line with both Milkman's 12 ..., Kh8(!) and Teyko's 13 ..., Nxc5! - Oh, alright then - "!!"  

However, I feel that playing the "waiting move", 12 Bc4, is a little too slow - White needs to use the time gained by the knight check to keep Black back on his heels.

So, 12 Ne7+, Kh8; 13 Bc4 - now Black hasn't the time for 13 ..., Nxc5 because of the immediate threat of 14 Re1 winning the queen. This is the whole point of playing the knight check before the bishop move - the knight robs the queen of f5 - along with d5 and c6 - whilst the bishop covers the only other escape square, e6.

There are two possible moves here for Black - 13 ..., d3 has already been discussed, though for now I wish to continue to explore it.

A 13 ..., d3;

There are two main candidates for White -  14 Bb3 has already been covered with similar play and "escape sequences" by the queen.

The second move is 14 b3!? - the latter being a familiar rook-sacrifice motif from similar fianchettoed positions  - in the Grunfeld, for example.

I realise that experienced (KID) players would shy from this capture, but in over-the-board tournament conditions, less experienced KID players might well do so. I'm not suggesting that the following "refutes" Teyko's idea(s) - I merely offer it as an exploration of possibilities, not necessarily "best play" for either side.

If Black does capture the rook, 14 ..., Bxa1(?!) - perhaps hoping for 15 Re1?!, Qxe1+; 16 Q/Nxe1, Bg7 when he might feel quite satisfied - White plays 15 Qxa1+, f6(!) [NOT 15 ..., Ne5??; 16 Bf6 mate!] 16 Re1, Qxe1+; 17 Nxe1(!) [Again, not 17 Qxe1?, fg].

Black's position is awkward - White threatens 18 h3 when, for example 18 ..., Ne5; 19 Nxd3(!) [19 f4(?!), Nxc4(??); 20 Bxf6+, Rxf6; 21 Qxf6 mate. Also, 19 ..., fg?; 20 fe, de; 21 Qxe5+ leads to mate; However, Black has the strong 19 ..., d2(!) at his disposal when he has the advantage. Finally, 19 ..., Nd7; 20 Be6(?!), fails to 20 ..., Nxc5(!); 21 Nxd3, Nxe6; and Black is still there.] Nd7; 20 Be6, Nab8 is just holding together.

Given Black's "undevelopment" and White's queen v two rooks (that are rather tied up), I feel that White has the advantage with an attack.

The other move is one which was not discussed at all as a possibility, although it is even more viable earlier in that line:

14 ..., Ne5

Given the dearth of escape squares for the queen, its purpose is clear - to vacate the g4 square in the first instance, with a view to it being used as a stepping-stone for the queen to escape to d7.

White has a number of tries at his disposal, 15 Nd2, 15 Re1, 15 Nxe5, etc. The play gets messy and results in doubled pawns (Black's a-, d- and White's f-) in some lines, other lines result in Black retaining the two bishops, etc.

I won't bore everyone with the details other than to use the old chestnut - "complicated with chances for both sides".  

To return to my "main line" after 11 ..., Qxe4; 12 Ne7+, Kh8; 13 Bc4, ... 

B 13 ..., Ne5

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b2r1k/ppp1Npbp/n2p2p1/2...

Vacating the g4 square for the queen and adding some tactical ploys around ..., Nxf3+. This is the move I had considered instead of the line your discussion followed.

One possible result is:

14 Bd5, Qg4; 15 Nxc8, Nxf3+; 16 Qxf3, Qxg5; 17 Bxb7, Raxc8; 18 Bxc8, Nxc5; 19 Bh3, d3; 20 Rab1, a5; 21 Qc6, Qd8; 22 Rfd1 perhaps with the idea of g3 and Bf1.

White has the two rooks but the game is still complicated.

However, ..., Ne5 can be played one move earlier (instead of 12 ..., Kh8):

11 ..., Qxe4; 12 Bc4, Ne5

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b2rk1/ppp2pbp/n2p2p1/2P...

The play is similar/transposes to the preceding lines.

One other point, Teyko, in a later diagrammed post, finished with "Rb1 or Rc1 is forced else ..., Qxa1 and Black picks up the a2 pawn" or words to that effect.

As can be seen from the b3!? rook sacrifice, White could allow the Qxa1 move in order to secure the black-squared bishop and mating threats with Bf6.

But that's another story!

Kindest regards,

James

Teyko wrote on 08/31/05 at 16:53:55:



Teyko,

I have been there and done that with this KID section.  So what I resorted to do is what I did here some time ago.  I would annotate the game myself and I would comment on some of my ideas and provide the analysis to back them up AND I would add them myself to the games published by using chesspub.  I wait now to see if GM Mik would include the info or share it or give credit to it and if he does not, I include it myself.    I found out a long time ago that paying members can annotate the games themselves and save it to chesspub and everyone may download YOUR work as well as GM MIK's work.

Everytime I do it I announce it from now on using the forum.

BladezII

What is the status of the Na6 lines ??

It's a shame you weren't credited, Teyko.  Maybe he knew you'd misspell his name in your message!

Quote:


In my opinion black should play 20...Bf8 21.b4(21.a3 Nc6 22.b4 Rc8 23.Qb2 a6 is about equal) 21...Qa4 22.a3 Rc8 23.Qb2 (23.Qxc8?! Bxc8 24.Rxc8 Rd7 gives white insufficient compensation for the queen)...Rxc1 24.Rxc1 a5!TN (Mikhalevski covered 24...Rd7 in his april update, but I don't like it) black should be fine after this move 8)
or what??

Quote:


after which move do you propose this line??

Quote:


I don't like black's position after 24.Rxc7 Rxc7 25.b5

I was looking at the moves that Teyko provided and I thought that 18.Rfc1 is a natural place to seek an improvement.  But I'll let that sit for now.

I finally figured out where Teyko was trying to place his 22.a3 Rc8 idea.  Teyko, you and I have a difference of opinion about the relative value of the King's Indian.  You see these positions as equal but I see Black's kingside still in ruins and the prospects for activity lay solely with short-term tactical devices.  White's position is more fundamentally sound, his minor pieces have more scope and long-term targets, and as long as the White king is safe here, I prefer White.   

I will grant you that you have found some ingenious ways to untangle your pieces, but you are still fighting from behind.