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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth? (Read 58855 times)
Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #81 - 02/02/07 at 22:25:50
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Markovich wrote on 02/02/07 at 15:14:21:
Teyko wrote on 02/02/07 at 01:28:34:
Is this plagarism?????

This is Tommy J. Curry. I just recieved the New in Chess Yearbook number 78 with Mikalevski's article. He totally rips off the analysis that I both sent him and posted on the website. 

He says on page 174 of NIC 78

An Underestimated idea

After the game Cheparinov-Matamoros, Dos Hermanas 2005 it seemed that this continuation was bad for Black, but the latter has found new ways to deal with 10...ed4 11.Nd5 

A) 11...Qe4

This is one of the understimated ideas in this line, which was discussed on the forum of chesspublishing.com and had been sugggested by Cheparinov to Matamoros in the post-mortem. It seems that this brave move may revive 10...ed4. It turns out that after the moves 12. Ne7 (12. Bc also deserves attention, see Pilaj-Freitag from the Austrian championship, 2005) 12...Kh8 Whitle cannot play 13. Nc8 in view of 13...Nc5, and the c8 knight is trapped. So he has to continue 13.cd6 and now instead of 13...cd6?! suggested by Carlos, Black has a much better idea: Nc5!, with the threat of 14...d3. I believe that this is a critical line that deserves further attention.



No, of course it isn't plagiarism.  Chess analysis isn't subject to copyright, and even if it were, what you post here enters the public domain.  

You do deserve credit for this idea.  But you post under an alias.  Even if, like mine, your true identity were discernable from your profile, Mikalevski can hardly be blamed for failing to look for it.  Next time you want credit for a great idea, I suggest you write to the NIC Yearbook letters section.  They're quite accessible.  I had some analysis of the Wilkes Barre published there a while back.  Hell, they even published a long analysis of a miserable defeat of mine, after my rat of an opponent wrote in to brag about it (under the guise of an important innovation, which it was not).

But in the last analysis (ha ha), the chess world is not really very interested in who thought of an idea -- especially if it was the amateur likes of you and me, dear chessfriend.  



I sent him an email with all this analysis in it.
  
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Markovich
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #80 - 02/02/07 at 15:14:21
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Teyko wrote on 02/02/07 at 01:28:34:
Is this plagarism?????

This is Tommy J. Curry. I just recieved the New in Chess Yearbook number 78 with Mikalevski's article. He totally rips off the analysis that I both sent him and posted on the website. 

He says on page 174 of NIC 78

An Underestimated idea

After the game Cheparinov-Matamoros, Dos Hermanas 2005 it seemed that this continuation was bad for Black, but the latter has found new ways to deal with 10...ed4 11.Nd5 

A) 11...Qe4

This is one of the understimated ideas in this line, which was discussed on the forum of chesspublishing.com and had been sugggested by Cheparinov to Matamoros in the post-mortem. It seems that this brave move may revive 10...ed4. It turns out that after the moves 12. Ne7 (12. Bc also deserves attention, see Pilaj-Freitag from the Austrian championship, 2005) 12...Kh8 Whitle cannot play 13. Nc8 in view of 13...Nc5, and the c8 knight is trapped. So he has to continue 13.cd6 and now instead of 13...cd6?! suggested by Carlos, Black has a much better idea: Nc5!, with the threat of 14...d3. I believe that this is a critical line that deserves further attention.



No, of course it isn't plagiarism.  Chess analysis isn't subject to copyright, and even if it were, what you post here enters the public domain.   

You do deserve credit for this idea.  But you post under an alias.  Even if, like mine, your true identity were discernable from your profile, Mikalevski can hardly be blamed for failing to look for it.  Next time you want credit for a great idea, I suggest you write to the NIC Yearbook letters section.  They're quite accessible.  I had some analysis of the Wilkes Barre published there a while back.  Hell, they even published a long analysis of a miserable defeat of mine, after my rat of an opponent wrote in to brag about it (under the guise of an important innovation, which it was not).

But in the last analysis (ha ha), the chess world is not really very interested in who thought of an idea -- especially if it was the amateur likes of you and me, dear chessfriend.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #79 - 02/02/07 at 01:48:24
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maybe Victor simply reached the same variations and conclusions independently?
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #78 - 02/02/07 at 01:28:34
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Is this plagarism?????

This is Tommy J. Curry. I just recieved the New in Chess Yearbook number 78 with Mikalevski's article. He totally rips off the analysis that I both sent him and posted on the website. 

He says on page 174 of NIC 78

An Underestimated idea

After the game Cheparinov-Matamoros, Dos Hermanas 2005 it seemed that this continuation was bad for Black, but the latter has found new ways to deal with 10...ed4 11.Nd5 

A) 11...Qe4

This is one of the understimated ideas in this line, which was discussed on the forum of chesspublishing.com and had been sugggested by Cheparinov to Matamoros in the post-mortem. It seems that this brave move may revive 10...ed4. It turns out that after the moves 12. Ne7 (12. Bc also deserves attention, see Pilaj-Freitag from the Austrian championship, 2005) 12...Kh8 Whitle cannot play 13. Nc8 in view of 13...Nc5, and the c8 knight is trapped. So he has to continue 13.cd6 and now instead of 13...cd6?! suggested by Carlos, Black has a much better idea: Nc5!, with the threat of 14...d3. I believe that this is a critical line that deserves further attention.

  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #77 - 01/11/07 at 01:09:15
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Yes I bet we'll be facing it a lot in the future. It's important to find a solution against it. Soon Smiley

I recently played my first tournament in over 2 years. In all 5 black games I played the KI ( first KI experience in a tournament Smiley )
KI is a great opening and I like the Na6 lines but 10.c5 scares me a bit...
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #76 - 01/10/07 at 14:22:26
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the 10.c5!? line is recommended in Khalifman's Opening Accordning to Kramnik 1b. Almost Famous...
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #75 - 09/13/06 at 10:13:09
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No offense taken, Teyko. I just thought I had to clarify that I'm not speaking for Fritz but for myself  Wink

I see no point in keeping the analysis private (I'm not planning to use it in Linares  Grin) so just reply whenever you have the time to do so.
  
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Teyko
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #74 - 09/11/06 at 19:44:56
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Meat wrote on 09/04/06 at 18:32:39:
You are of course right that I used Fritz for analysing but I don't quote his variations and opinions blindly. 

I really feel without any computer help that blak is worse in the positions after 15. Rc1 Ne5 16. Re1 Nxf3+ 17. gxf3 Qd4 18. dxc7

Just look at the position, blacks pieces aren't placed very well: The a rook is not developed at all, the f rook is pinned to defend f7, Bc8 is also not developed and the d3 pawn will soon drop off. On the other side white's rooks are perfectly placed, all of his minor pieces are on active squares and he has a pawn on c7 that I don't see dropping very soon.

Frankly I would love to believe your assesment of "at least equal" but I can't and neither can Fritz.

I'd really like to discuss some lines here, so for example against 19. Bxd3 Ne6 the computer suggests 20 Bh4 which is vertainly not a bad move, but I personally opt for 20. Qd2
Fritz then gives 20...Nxg5 21. Qxg5 Qxa2 22. Be4 Qa6 23. Qc5 and black is just worse.
20...Bd7 21. Rc2 Nxg5 22. Qxg5 Qb4 23. Re4 should also favor white. 

So if you say 18...Qxb2 isn't best then please let us know what is... Smiley


Hey Meat,

I was not trying to use the fact that you used fritz as an ad hominem attack nor an indict of your claim that Black doesn't have equality. I will be happy to pursue this line of argumentation over this line if you would like. I am extremely busy at the moment with school work, dissertations don't write themselves, but if you wish, postthe exact point in the line you wish for us to discuss and I will get back to you., or you can email me at kyta_swan@yahoo.com if you wish to keep your analysis private.
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #73 - 09/04/06 at 18:32:39
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You are of course right that I used Fritz for analysing but I don't quote his variations and opinions blindly. 

I really feel without any computer help that blak is worse in the positions after 15. Rc1 Ne5 16. Re1 Nxf3+ 17. gxf3 Qd4 18. dxc7

Just look at the position, blacks pieces aren't placed very well: The a rook is not developed at all, the f rook is pinned to defend f7, Bc8 is also not developed and the d3 pawn will soon drop off. On the other side white's rooks are perfectly placed, all of his minor pieces are on active squares and he has a pawn on c7 that I don't see dropping very soon.

Frankly I would love to believe your assesment of "at least equal" but I can't and neither can Fritz.

I'd really like to discuss some lines here, so for example against 19. Bxd3 Ne6 the computer suggests 20 Bh4 which is vertainly not a bad move, but I personally opt for 20. Qd2
Fritz then gives 20...Nxg5 21. Qxg5 Qxa2 22. Be4 Qa6 23. Qc5 and black is just worse.
20...Bd7 21. Rc2 Nxg5 22. Qxg5 Qb4 23. Re4 should also favor white. 

So if you say 18...Qxb2 isn't best then please let us know what is... Smiley
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #72 - 09/04/06 at 17:56:47
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Meat wrote on 08/29/06 at 10:27:35:
Upon reading this thread I might have an important variation to add to the discussion of 10. c5. So we go:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 0-0 6. Be2 e5 7. 0-0 Na6 8. Be3 Ng4 9. Bg5 Qe8 10. c5 exd4 11. Nd5 Qxe4 and now white plays 12. Ne7+ Kh8 13. cxd6 Nc5.
And here 14. Bb5 was analysed with the result that black has good chances after 14...d3. But what about the move 14. Bc4? It blocks the black queen of b4 and controls the important squares d5 and e6. I feel this is a clear improvement over 14. Bb5.
Play can go: 14...d3 15. Rc1 Ne5 16. Re1 and here I claim advantage for white as 

16...Qg4 can be answered with the stunning 17. Rxe5! Bxe5 18. h3 and white is better

and 16...Nxf3 17. gxf3 Qd4 18. dxc7 Qxb2 19. Bxd3 should also give white a clear edge.

So am I missing somethin here, or is "Teyko's Poisoned Pawn" now busted? And if so, what can black do then against 10. c5 ?



I certainly don't think that my poisoned pawn varation (the name given by the forum) is busted. I think that most of you analysis follows from fritz and that is fine, but Black is at least equal in all of these lines.

I personally don't think that 18...Qxb2 is the best move in this position but following your analysis 19.Bxd3 and 19...Ne6 seems fine for Black.
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #71 - 09/03/06 at 16:31:02
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You're not talking about 14. Bd3 Micawber, are you?

This would simply lose to Qxd3.
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #70 - 09/03/06 at 15:54:05
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Looking at the position, without a board I also wondered if white might not play Bd3 instead of
Bc4. The Queen has not many good retreats. And white gets a rather active position out of this line.
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #69 - 09/02/06 at 05:11:55
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I'll bite.

Alias has published information on the new Opening for White According to Kramnik (OFWAK) in which he devotes a great deal of space to 7...Na6.   I know that I have trouble facing it and I don't think I'm alone.  I'd love to find a silver bullet for it.  Maybe Kramnik will show us how to dismantle 7...Na6 in the Topalov match, since apparently Topalov still plays 7...Na6 from time to time!  (This is according to Khalifman in his intro to the new edition.)
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #68 - 09/01/06 at 16:38:20
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As no one is is posting I take it that he 7...Na6 KID is refuted!!!

(Or maybe not and I just want to provoke some answers Smiley )
  
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Re: 7...Na6 vs. 7...Nc6--what's the truth?
Reply #67 - 08/29/06 at 10:27:35
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Upon reading this thread I might have an important variation to add to the discussion of 10. c5. So we go:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 0-0 6. Be2 e5 7. 0-0 Na6 8. Be3 Ng4 9. Bg5 Qe8 10. c5 exd4 11. Nd5 Qxe4 and now white plays 12. Ne7+ Kh8 13. cxd6 Nc5.
And here 14. Bb5 was analysed with the result that black has good chances after 14...d3. But what about the move 14. Bc4? It blocks the black queen of b4 and controls the important squares d5 and e6. I feel this is a clear improvement over 14. Bb5.
Play can go: 14...d3 15. Rc1 Ne5 16. Re1 and here I claim advantage for white as 

16...Qg4 can be answered with the stunning 17. Rxe5! Bxe5 18. h3 and white is better

and 16...Nxf3 17. gxf3 Qd4 18. dxc7 Qxb2 19. Bxd3 should also give white a clear edge.

So am I missing somethin here, or is "Teyko's Poisoned Pawn" now busted? And if so, what can black do then against 10. c5 ?
  
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