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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chess & children (Read 32799 times)
Paddy
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #21 - 01/26/05 at 06:17:38
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Well, I'm not gong to get drawn into a protracted debate - I have made my views pretty clear and I by and large stick by them.

Essentially, I just don't buy the argument that Open Games have some sort of unique characteristics that make them suitable for people learning the game .

The way I see it, chess is chess ...


This whole thread needs tidying up. There are a bits of this debate scatterered all over the forum! 

I stand by what I wrote elsewhere: "I've been involved in junior chess coaching for about thirty years, and  I strongly agree with Markovich.  This approach is also supported by the bulk of the coaching literature, but it should be noted that there are some important dissenting voices, such as Alex Yermolinsky and Nigel Davies.   
 
My own impression based on my coaching experience is that, in general, players reach FIDE 2000 fastest with a repertoire based mainly on open games, rapid development, simple plans and direct aggression. 
 
But it definitely seems that there are also some players who do not prosper on this diet - they are capable of becoming "average club players", or even beyond,  but cannot (or will not) absorb the sheer amount of detail required to play an "open games" repertoire.  Not everyone is the same (thank goodness). "

I'd add that one of my best ever students (now much stronger than me at over FIDE 2350 aged eighteen) was very uncomfortable with our club's usual suggested "open games" repertoire, and instead  put his foot down and insisted at the age of nine on playing the Queen's Gambit Exchange Variation as White and the O'Kelly Sicilian and the Schmid Benoni as Black!  As I recall he won the British U10 championship playing this repertoire! But he's definitely an exception - my experience tells me that open games and simple, direct aggressive plans are best for the vast majority of learners.

I'm happy to share my coaching ideas; you might like to check out:

http://www.btinternet.com/~cccs.chess/ChessClubCoaching.htm
  
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MNb
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #20 - 01/26/05 at 05:47:27
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For the third time, I think that 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 on kids level is a good idea too.
  

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lnn2
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #19 - 01/26/05 at 01:04:12
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I wonder what Markovich would have to say about teaching kids the Sveshnikov Sicilian. It certainly leads to lots of pieces flying about! Cheesy The debate seems to center upon alumbrado's (ex-?)favourite Pirc and Markovich's 1.... e5.  I don't play either. But if an open position is what we want our kids to learn to play, why not say the sicilian or scandinavian? 

Why is 1... e5 in particular more "open" than either of these two (aside from its name)?  ???
  
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Markovich
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #18 - 01/25/05 at 21:35:02
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This is precisely the mentality I want to avoid.  The idea of this kid beating up that kid, because one has been "trained properly" is vulgar and the idea that winning at chess is everything, which is implicit in this statement, smacks of a kind of indoctrination that is quintessentially anti-pedagogical.  I suspect that another variant on Alumbrado's "chess is chess" to which I would subscribe is the notion that while winning is nice, it's not the sole reason for playing chess.


I did not express a "mentality" but a particular set of ideas.  What I said was, a kid trained well (as I would describe it) "would come and beat" a kid poorly trained (as I would allege).   

That is merely to say that one method of training is much more effective than another.  It is not to say, even implicitly, that "winning at chess is everything."  Nor am I responsible, in my plain words, for what you think they "smack of."  Please rejoin what I say, and leave your uncharitable assumptions aside.

Parenthetically, I did not say "properly" trained.  I don't care a fig for propriety; what I care about is helping kids to win their games.   And you know what?  I have chess parents begging me to take on their talented children.  I have principals calling me up and asking me to work in their schools.

The last time I checked, the test of chess strength WAS the ability to win games of chess.  I could write at considerable length here about the relationship between competitiveness in chess and why we teach chess to young people.  Over the course of my years teaching chess kids, I've thought a great deal about it.  But doing that would go somewhat beyond this topic, and would be most unlikely to engage someone who wants to look beyond what I say and judge what I "smack of."

So by all means, go right ahead and teach your chess kid however you like.  However, I do suggest you seek the advice of people who have actual experience teaching chess to children, as opposed to those who merely have opinions about it.
  

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MNb
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #17 - 01/25/05 at 20:40:41
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"Euwe made it, I believe, but I can't recall where"
Neither do I, as Euwe wrote so many books, but I recall that he quoted Réti.

"he does seem to grasping the fundamentals of positional play."
The first fundamental of positional play, is to know how to activate your pieces in an open position. So there is not really a contradiction. I stated before, that as soon as a novice has mastered this, (s)he can take up more sophisticated themes.
Max Euwe has written a series of five books called Praktische Schaaklessen - Practical Chess Lessons. This method was rather popular in the Soviet Union, this as a recommendation. While book 1 is about learning the rules, book 2 treats general concepts of opening, middle game and endgame. The middle game section treats the theory of Steinitz (though I suspect it is in reality the theory of Steinitz reworked by Euwe), which is a statical way to look at positions by evaluating 11 aspects, from a lead in development to turning temporary advantages in permananet ones. This theory is illustrated with some games, the most recent one a Botvinnik game of 1943.
There is a simple pedagogical truth here. If you teach such concepts and the pupil is interested and gets it, than the pupil is ripe for it. If (s)he has a hazy look in his eyes, you better turn to something simpler.
But especially on childs level it is very important to teach tactics. Then we are back again: tactics mostly occur in open positions ....
There is another, a remarkable fact concerning child's chess. In the very beginning, they mostly enjoy playing the pieces around. But as soon as they learn the sweet taste of winning, they become very fanatic. The ambition to win is very human, isn't it? I do not see, what is vulgar about competition and competition is about striving to win. There is nothing anti-pedagogical about this. In fact, I always thought that such an attitude is typical American. "Be a winner!!!" is the device of every American sportsman, isn't it?
This does not mean, that one should deny children the beauty of chess, not at all. But putting emphasis on esthetics is more for golden oldies like me.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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HgMan
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #16 - 01/25/05 at 15:38:07
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So fine, teach some chess kid to play the Pirc, and one of my kids -- notwithstanding that he has no idea of what the Pirc is, let alone the official systems of playing against it -- will come and beat him,  because he knows how to activate his pieces, take over the center, and find good tactics.   And I can assure you that to a strong observer, the moves of the kid trained to play in open fashion will look a lot more like good chess than the moves of some poor kid who's been subjected to instruction in the key themes (God!) of the Pirc.   This happens all the time, in fact, not with the Pirc, but with the very popular Dragon.  


This is precisely the mentality I want to avoid.  The idea of this kid beating up that kid, because one has been "trained properly" is vulgar and the idea that winning at chess is everything, which is implicit in this statement, smacks of a kind of indoctrination that is quintessentially anti-pedagogical.  I suspect that another variant on Alumbrado's "chess is chess" to which I would subscribe is the notion that while winning is nice, it's not the sole reason for playing chess.

My son has been playing chess for a couple of years now.  He knows to get his pieces out, concentrate on the center of the board, and make sure his king is safe.  He knows that Scholar's Mate is a trick every other seven year old is going to try to pull on him and he knows it doesn't work when your opponent is prepared for it.  He's also starting to put together combinations.  But what I admire most about his play is that chess is a process, not a competition.  He plays because he likes moving the pieces around the board and because he likes "solving puzzles."  

As I mentioned in previous messages, I'm not teaching him any opening in exclusion of anything else.  The initial question was designed to inquire about patching him up with a set-up (that incidentally, the principles of which he was understanding reasonably well), not "what killer repertoire should I give my seven-year-old?"  We play through games, we look for combinations, etc., but he does seem to grasping the fundamentals of positional play.  Set up a position in front of him and ask him which side he prefers, he'll think for a minute or two and pick his side, noting the effectiveness of where the pieces are positioned, what kind of claim on the center of the board that side might have, etc.  All this at a relatively novice level, but it's clear that he "gets" it.

Frankly, I think I fall somewhere between MNb and Alumbrado on this one, but share Alumbrado's perplexity as to why a young player can't grasp more positional features of the game (and not in isolation)?
« Last Edit: 01/25/05 at 17:57:17 by HgMan »  

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Markovich
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #15 - 01/25/05 at 11:18:50
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Well, I'm not gong to get drawn into a protracted debate - I have made my views pretty clear and I by and large stick by them.

Essentially, I just don't buy the argument that Open Games have some sort of unique characteristics that make them suitable for people learning the game (I am not suggesting they are unsuitable, by the way).  Equally, I have spent some time in other threads rejecting notions of the sort that the Queen's Gambit is "boring" or that the Catalan is a "positional" opening and therefore not for people who enjoy "tactics".

The way I see it, chess is chess ...


Well, I don't want a protracted debate either, but I would like the chance to address some of your earlier points.

Chess is indeed chess, but there's a reason why Kieseritzky and those guys played chiefly in open fashion, and why the Max Lange Attack isn't a system of play against the Pirc.  They didn't have the understanding of the game that we have, armed with the advantage of their example and that of many strong players since.

People played the Scotch Game because, based on what today is know to be a limited understanding, it made a great deal of sense.  When Pirc-like formations came up, even as late as the 1920s, they mostly laughed at them, not understanding the positional ideas that could justify playing in that way.   

Remember, when you very correctly say "chess is chess," and your understanding encompasses everything from the Exchange Slav to the Catalan, your perspective is that of a fully educated player.  I think there is a strong argument -- Euwe made it, I believe, but I can't recall where -- that the development of a chess player recapitulates the development of chess.  I would argue that just as the chess masters of yore understood the virtues of a central pawn phalanx before they understood ideas of undermining pawn centers, so a player really has to know how to play WITH a strong pawn center before he can play in Pirc, Alekhine or Gruenfeld fashion.

I don't think its a small thing that a closed position can't arise from an open one (that's different from saying that a closed position can't arise from 1. e4 e5), while in closed positions, the key question is usually when and how to cause the position to become open.  Your conclusion was, so why not play the Pirc anyway, but the pedagogical point is that the simplest and best way to learn how to play open positions is to play directly into them.  Once you have some grasp of that you can then play the French or the Pirc and, presumably, be able to weigh your various opportunities for letting/causing the game to become open.   

If you take a chess kid with no very good understanding of   open piece play and load him up with ideas like using ...c5 to undermine white's d-pawn and increase the scope of the g7 bishop, you are really putting the cart before the horse.  He's not going to see as many open positions;  his play of the Pirc will stink because he has no way to judge when to play ...c5 or ...e5 or ...d5 and when not to; mostly he will flounder around and get mated on g7; and even if he does succeed in blasting open the position on favorable terms, he won't likely play such positions as well as a player weaned on them.  If on the other hand you teach a kid to play the Ulvestad, you will see that the resulting games more closely resemble those of a strong player, though kid chess is inevitably marred by terrible blunders.   

I admit that I haven't experimented by setting aside one group of players and teaching them the Pirc and the other the Two Knights, but for the reason's I've explained, I am fairly certain of the unwisdom  of doing that.  Talk to some people who actually coach chess kids and I think you will find that the great majority of them agree with me.
  

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MNb
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #14 - 01/25/05 at 08:54:53
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<Essentially, I just don't buy the argument that Open Games have some sort of unique characteristics that make them suitable for people learning the game.>
That is why I said that Markovich is a bit inflexible. And I have made several other recommendations too. And I stick to the argument that children should strive to open the position as soon as possible; which is quite different from playing nothing but the Open Games.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #13 - 01/25/05 at 08:40:38
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Well, I'm not gong to get drawn into a protracted debate - I have made my views pretty clear and I by and large stick by them.

Essentially, I just don't buy the argument that Open Games have some sort of unique characteristics that make them suitable for people learning the game (I am not suggesting they are unsuitable, by the way).  Equally, I have spent some time in other threads rejecting notions of the sort that the Queen's Gambit is "boring" or that the Catalan is a "positional" opening and therefore not for people who enjoy "tactics".

The way I see it, chess is chess ...
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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Markovich
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #12 - 01/25/05 at 08:21:34
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A good chess teacher will notice, when a pupil is ready for some sophistication. I guess, Markovich would consider such a pupil a strong player.


A improving chess kid is pretty soon ready for "some sophistication," which comes in the form of some lines of the Scotch Four Knights and the Two Knights, the latter including some initial moves of the Ulvestad, how to play against 4. d4, and the immortal "Fork trick" variation.   It also comes in the form of some elementary king and pawn endings and some principles of play in rook and pawn endings.  I would essentially never talk to a kid about the Pirc, other than to show him one or two simple plans for playing against it.

If a kid's dad started teaching him the black side of the Dragon, I would tell him (the dad) to cut it out.   This happened.  You can call me inflexible, but just consider me the voice of experience when it comes to teaching chess to kids.

At the opposite end of the spectrum you have the kids who are always developing the queen very early and trying to do everything with it.  I never tell a kid to cut that out, since a kid should do what he thinks he needs to do to win.  In fact at low levels, having the queen out early IS a good winning strategy, since the opponent is often unable to coordinate his pieces sufficiently to resist it.  I do try to make them aware, however, the plusses and minuses of having the queen out soon.

I could go on and on, but this forum and this thread isn't the place for airing out how you teach chess to kids; it was just about whether a 7-year-old new to chess should be prepped on the Pirc.
  

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MNb
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #11 - 01/24/05 at 21:19:27
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Though I think Markovich a bit inflexible in his advise what openings children should play, I can summarize his long post with:
"The fundament of education is to teach that what the pupil is ready for and has interest in."
A good chess teacher will notice, when a pupil is ready for some sophistication. I guess, Markovich would consider such a pupil a strong player.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Markovich
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #10 - 01/24/05 at 15:49:12
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Well, I think you are going to like this post, because I think a whole lot of sh1t is spoken and written about what openings beginners should play.  The Pirc is a very diverse opening - it can lead to positions reminiscent of the Spanish, the Philidor, the Sicilian ...
The idea that, unless you answer 1.e4 with 1...e5 until you are 12 years old or whatever, you are are never going to develop properly as a player, is, frankly, b0ll0cks.
There will be responses to this which are along the lines of "I have trained juniors for x years and this is the approach that works best".  The people submitting these posts will be, without exception, charlatans.


Yeah, well, I HAVE trained 5 to 13 year old chess kids for X years and I DO think that a kid should answer 1. e4 with e5 until he gets up to a pretty high level -- just as he should play 1. e4 and not 1. Nf3.  Though that damns me for a charlatan, at least I am a charlatan whose kids regularly dominate the state championships here in Ohio and do rather well in national competitions as well.   

X=13, by the way, in the case of this particular charlatan, whose false pretensions of being a chess teacher have consistently been pursued for about four hours per week, on a purely voluntary basis and not in exchange for money.

One of the main things to understand about kid chess is that a very high proportion of their games are decided by outright blunders, and of those that are not, an overwhelming share is decided by superior tactics.  So the drill among those kids who can make a pass at holding onto their pieces is tactics, tactics and more tactics, with strong emphasis on getting piece activity as a prelude to finding a way to win a piece or perhaps to launch a king attack.   

Open positions are really what the kid game is all about, the main reason being that their is no simpler way to get good piece activity than to play into such positions.  What you teach kids about pawns is (1) the importance of having some relatively undisturbed ones in front of your king, (2) their usefulness for keeping (or driving) enemy peices out of the center and (3) some good techniques for turning them into queens.  You spend very little time on considerations of pawn structure, because this simply does not help kids to win their games.   Nor, for the same reason, do you teach very much opening theory, even of the open games.

So fine, teach some chess kid to play the Pirc, and one of my kids -- notwithstanding that he has no idea of what the Pirc is, let alone the official systems of playing against it -- will come and beat him,  because he knows how to activate his pieces, take over the center, and find good tactics.   And I can assure you that to a strong observer, the moves of the kid trained to play in open fashion will look a lot more like good chess than the moves of some poor kid who's been subjected to instruction in the key themes (God!) of the Pirc.   This happens all the time, in fact, not with the Pirc, but with the very popular Dragon.   

The problem is, you really can't play Pirc-wise or Dragon-wise or whatever until you learn to play open-wise, and if you try, you'll make a fool of yourself.

I wish to emphasize that I am talking about how to turn ordinary kids into strong players, NOT how to turn strong players into IMs or GMs.  I know very well how to do the former; I have no very good notion of how to do the latter.
  

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HgMan
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #9 - 01/21/05 at 17:43:03
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Think of me, when you drink your next beer. Cheers.


Drinks on me if any of you should pass through Philadelphia!  And maybe a game with my ever-improving son...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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HgMan
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #8 - 01/21/05 at 17:40:48
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It is already  a miracle that a 7 year old can sit still on a chair for hours...


Well, we're not quite there yet--the "still" part, anyway!
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re:  Chess & children
Reply #7 - 01/21/05 at 17:39:24
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Some very fascinating thoughts here--thank you (and the real Olympians couldn't stop quarreling, so maybe it goes with the territory Wink).

I should stress that my son and I spend most of our chess time having fun--these are not training sessions by any stretch of the imagination.  And when we're not racing pieces around the board, we're usually playing through grandmaster games from books like Chernev's or Nunn's and talking about what he's seeing on the board.  My "instruction" is designed to provoke his imagination and interest rather than teach chess praxis.

My initial question about the 1 ... d6 repertoire stemmed largely from his desire to enter a junior tournament and wanting to survive the first five or six moves of a game.  By nature, he's a very gentle little boy and not at all aggressive, and this carries over into his chess.  He often seems reluctant to take his opponent's pieces even if they're hanging.  When asked, he knows the piece is hanging, but seems predisposed to keeping pieces on the board.  We're going to have to break this habit eventually, but he tends toward passivity, maybe closed positions are better?!
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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