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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ? (Read 57178 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #57 - 01/31/05 at 04:24:31
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The K-mann wants to meet this with ...Nxd5 9.cxd5 Nd7! intending Nb6/f6.

If I was playing 7...Qe8, I might be more concerned about 8.Qb3 as in Jussupow-Kindermann, (p75-77) black was more or less forced to force a draw in 20 moves which might be fine when playing against Jussupow, but I can't find any advice from K-mann how to keep the fire going if you want to try for a win against a less illustrious opponent...
  
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MNb
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #56 - 01/30/05 at 20:19:25
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I still wonder, how Black must meet 7...Qe8 8.Nd5!? in the Leningrad. This idea is obviously not very strong in my beloved IZ...
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #55 - 01/30/05 at 12:04:11
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Well, any day seems a few months away, as 2005-05-01 should mean May 1st 2005.

http://www.niggemann.com/detail/buecher/7719.html
  
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Paddy
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #54 - 01/30/05 at 11:52:10
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I'm not very fond of the 7...Qe8 systems in the L-grad, but I think Kindermann's book says a5 instead of Na6 is just necessary nowadays, so theory is progressing very rapidly in this system. Just a few years prior to the book, K-man made a dvd with Na6 as his chosen line...


A revised edition of KInderrmann's Leningrad book is due out any time published by Olms - in English!
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #53 - 01/30/05 at 06:00:18
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I'm not very fond of the 7...Qe8 systems in the L-grad, but I think Kindermann's book says a5 instead of Na6 is just necessary nowadays, so theory is progressing very rapidly in this system. Just a few years prior to the book, K-man made a dvd with Na6 as his chosen line...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #52 - 01/30/05 at 05:14:16
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I'm a new boy where the wonders of the Leningrad are concerned and would like to ask what set-ups people would recommend after 7 ...Qe8 8 d5. In particular: is there anything wrong with 8 ...Na6 9 Rb1 Nc5 apart from a possible lack of strategic richness (as stated in another thread) compared with 8 ...a5 lines? And what about 8 ...a5 9 Rb1 Na6 10 a3? I've noticed four lines being played recently:

I  10 ...Bd7 11 b4 ab 12 ab c5 13 dc bc 14 b5 cb 15 cb Nc5

II 10 ...e5 11 de Be6 (OR 11 ...Nc5 12 Nd4 Ne6 13 Ne6 Qe6 14 Nd5 Qf7) 12 Nd4 c6 13 Na4 Rd8 14 Bd2 Bc4 15 Ba5 Rb8

III 10 ...Nc5 11 Nb5 Qd7!? 12 b4 ab 13 ab Nce4 14 Nfd4 c6

IV  10 ...h6 11 b4 (11 h4!?) ab 12 ab g5 13 Nd4 Kh8


Which of these are best for Black? Thanks for your help!

  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #51 - 01/29/05 at 13:20:54
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I think Pinski also liked 7...Ne4. But to understand the advantage of Ne4 over Qe8 or a5, one must first know these variations it seems.

I checked what Khalifman had to say about 7...Ne4, and after 8.Qc2 Nxc3 9.Qxc3 Bf6 10.b4! he likes white. But 9...a5 as indicated by Williams (and not mentioned by Khalifman in 2001), seems better. 
It's similar to 7...a5 8.b3 Ne4 but then white can recapture more comfortably with 9.Bb2 Nxc3 10.Bc3 and here ...Bf6 has less bite than with the queen on c3.

This is at least one idea with Ne4 I think, feel free to point out other pros & cons! Just like HgMan I only dabble with the Iljin - but I play the Leningrad.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #50 - 01/29/05 at 11:07:53
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As 7...Ne4 is a newish idea, it has seen less action, but 47% may not be too unrealistic - Williams alone scored 2½/4 with it.


Williams devotes a chapter to 7 ... Ne4 in his book, Play the Classical Dutch.  It's a shortish chapter based on the fact that it has been rarely played, but he claims that 7 ... Ne4 (to which he adds a !) "solves all of Black's problems."  The added advantage here is that Black is going to want to play this move anyway.  So why not immediately?
  

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HgMan
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #49 - 01/29/05 at 11:04:22
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These stats sound fairly persuasive, but I've never put too much stock in them, especially in a line like the IZ.  Often times, even strong players with the Black pieces get all consumed with a swashbuckling attack on the kingside to the detriment of his/her own defense.  Therefore, it should come as little surprise that the statistics suggest a bloodbath.  I also suspect (without having checked) that these lines produce fewer draws on average than do other d4 openings.  I could be wrong--just a hunch.   

MNb's game several messages back is particularly instructive insofar as it preaches patience in Black's strike.  All this to say that the Classical is indeed an aggressive opening, but Black should exhibit some patience (though not passivity) in his/her play.

I'm sure there are some objective advantages to playing the Leningrad over the Classical Dutch (I dabble with both, but don't play either), but I am getting a little tired of the somewhat repetitive theme on many of these message boards that seem to insist on burying openings.  I would imagine a more useful, profitable, and enjoyable exertion of our energies would be to rehabilitate openings rather than condemn them out of hand based on what our databases tell us.  That's not to say that the Classical Dutch will refute 1 d4, but there must be innovations out there.
  

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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #48 - 01/29/05 at 10:15:42
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If White plays 7.b3 in the Iljin-Ghenevsky Dutch I have 217 games of players rated>2000 Elo and this results in 65 % (!) White vs. 35 % Black. If somebody asks me what opening scores these numbers I would have answered with some Gambit.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #47 - 01/29/05 at 05:08:19
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"There are lies, damn lies and statistics"

If the statistics should reveal anything worthwhile, one must study the material first and make some kind of preselection.

When you take an 2300 average as the only criteria, you get many games with white being clearly higher rated (more than 100 elo points). Especially in an impopular black opening with few GMs as black the average will be on white's side.

As an experiment I tried selecting only games where the same black player had at least 3 different games  (i.e. avoiding copies) in this 2300 average group:

this lead to: 

7...a5,    80 games, black scores 46%
7...Qe8  76 games, black scores 38%
7....Ne4 16 games, black scores 47%

As 7...Ne4 is a newish idea, it has seen less action, but 47% may not be too unrealistic - Williams alone scored 2½/4 with it.

There may be even better selection criteria than this of course, but at least it balances white's higher rating average (and first move advantage!) with a probably more informed 2nd player.

Though it's interesting that 7...Qe8 still did rather poorly...
  
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #46 - 01/29/05 at 03:20:30
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Well, as it may take for me some further weeks to reach 2600+ (2500+ must be a matter of a few days) I am satisfied with stating results in the Leningrad Dutch with an average of only 2330 Elo (despite the risk of including games of players who even dont know the rules yet Wink) and there it is a fact, that the Leningrad Dutch scores 53 % White vs. 47 % Black.

And that the Iljin-Ghenevsky scores by far worse and that results in some variations remind scores seen only in Gambits, is a fact too.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #45 - 01/28/05 at 18:11:34
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Here's a new game/article on the Iljin with 7...Ne4:

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/drmjdonnelly/donnellycosham.htm?f=fs
  
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MNb
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #44 - 01/28/05 at 05:11:12
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<The Leningrad Dutch scores in the main variation with 7...Qe8 the result of 53 % White vs. 47 % Black.>
With both players having ELO 2500+ the score is 56% vs 44% and both with ELO 2600+ even 58% vs 42%. That is what I meant. Not that I want to discourage anyone of playing this defence.
Still, after 7...Qe8 8.Nd5 White has 57%. So from a statistical point of view The Leningrad with 7...Qe8 is not that much better.

"chess history treats this as the birth hour of the Qe8-Leningrad." This confirms once again, that chess history, especially history of opening theory, is highly unreliable. Fact is, that Malanjuk's "novelty" was already a quarter of a century old. This confirms another truth: it is useful, to study old games and look if the ideas in those games still are useful.
« Last Edit: 01/28/05 at 12:17:19 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #43 - 01/28/05 at 02:25:54
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Yes, sorry, forgot to state, of course I did mean the Leningrad dutch.

Fact is, that Vladimir Malanjuk won at the USSR-championship 1983 two impressing Leningrad games with 7...Qe8 against Beliavsky and Polugajevsky and chess history treats this as the birth hour of the Qe8-Leningrad.

The Leningrad Dutch scores in the main variation with 7...Qe8 the result of 53 % White vs. 47 % Black.

Compared with the Iljin-Ghenevsky that scores in the main variation 59 % White vs. 41 % Black, if White sets up with b3 then 61 % White vs. 39 % Black.
  
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