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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ? (Read 57185 times)
Viking
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #72 - 03/24/06 at 09:54:02
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TJ is correct.
I dont have any problems with a5 in the Leningrad (my personal choice up to now) or KID for that matter.

But the logic behind a5 in the IZ is not clear to me... Undecided
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #71 - 03/24/06 at 09:40:26
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Willempie wrote on 03/24/06 at 09:06:55:
I think you refer to the Leningrad. I think a5 serves a similar purpose as in the KI. To avoid b4 and to put the knight on c5.



Nope, that *was* about the Iljin main line, where black has three options 7...Ne4, 7...Qe8 & 7...a5.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #70 - 03/24/06 at 09:06:55
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I think you refer to the Leningrad. I think a5 serves a similar purpose as in the KI. To avoid b4 and to put the knight on c5.
  

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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #69 - 03/24/06 at 08:53:45
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I have looked into the IZ quite a bit lately (as I am about to include the french into my repertouar I see this as a way to possibly avoid the quite dangerous 2nd move alternatives....).

But in my investigation I have the same question related to ..a5 as adressed by TJ:

TalJechin wrote on 01/23/05 at 07:03:02:
Just choosing a main line is somewhat perplexing, as 7...a5 and 7...Qe8 often seem to transpose after b3, my preference so far is the latter as black can play Nbd7 with quicker development - and the point of a7-a5 after b2-b3 eludes me somewhat. Why stop b4 if white obviously doesn't want to play it? Presumably, it's a waiting move, wanting white to commit with Qc2 or Bb2/Ba3 --- there is one  independent plan after a5, i.e. Na6, c6, nc7, Rb8 and b5 - fighting for square d5 - but I'm not sure when/if this is preferable to Qe8-h5/g6...


Could some IZ specialists please comment why one should play ..a5!?

When it comes to 7..a5 - Is the main point just to avoid the early b4 variations by white?
« Last Edit: 03/24/06 at 09:54:39 by Viking »  
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MNb
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #68 - 02/10/05 at 21:35:24
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In many posts above we can read, that in the IZ double fianchetto Black has difficulties forcing e6-e5. That is not entirely true. One of the many possible ideas to meet this critical variation is favoured by specialist Keith Hayward:

Hahn,D - Hayward,K [A99]
corr 9USCCC, 1992
1.d4 f5 2.Pf3 Pf6 3.g3 e6 4.Lg2 Le7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 7.Pc3 De8 8.b3 Pc6 9.d5 Pd8 10.Pb5 Pxd5 11.Pxd6 Lxd6 12.cxd5 e5 13.e4 Pf7 14.exf5 Lxf5 15.Ph4 Ld7 16.Le4 g6 17.Dc2 Ph8 18.Lh6 Tf7 19.Pf3 Lf5 20.Tfe1 Dd7 21.Ld3 Te8 22.Pg5 Lxd3 23.Dxd3 Tf5 24.Pe4 Pf7 25.g4 Pxh6 26.gxf5 Dxf5 27.Te3 Tf8 28.h3 Dh5 29.De2 Dh4 30.Tc3 Tf4 31.Pxd6 cxd6 32.Tac1 Pf7 33.Tc8+ Kg7 34.De3 Pg5 35.T1c7+ Kh6 36.Th8 Dh5 37.Kg2 Dd1 38.f3 Dxd5 39.h4 Pf7 40.Tb8 Kh5 41.Tc4 Txc4 42.bxc4 Dxc4 43.Txb7 Dxa2+ 44.Kg3 g5 45.De4 gxh4+ 46.Dxh4+ Kg6 47.De4+ Kg7 48.Df5 a5 49.Dg5+ 1-0

Now I do not claim easy equality for Black - such a thing does not exist in the IZ. At the 12th move though, Black has his ideal centre. It is not hard, to improve Black's play at move 16. This is not an exemplary game, but it strikes me that even with that awful knight on h8 Hayward managed to create counterplay.
For more games with this variation I refer to
http://www.geocities.com/drawyah
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #67 - 02/10/05 at 08:38:55
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I suppose I was thinking about something like 12...dxc4 13.Bxe4 Qe7 and e6-e5, perhaps Rd8 first. White probably still has an edge, but the way I understood Williams' book was that d5xc4 and pressure on pawn-d4 is the way to go after the exchange on e4 (though I think he only gives f2-f3 d5xc4).

Perhaps this is just an illustration of the complexities of the Iljin, as black's choice of plan isn't obvious to me or to a usually very solid GM. As far as I know, this may be Brynell's first try to play the Dutch as black...
  
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #66 - 02/09/05 at 22:15:08
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In the game Ahlander-Brynell I do not quite see where Black could have played dxc4 followed by e6-e5.
But is't 15...Bg6 (instead of Bh5) better? The pseudo sac Nxd4 did not work before, but after 16.a4 Qe7 17.b5 Nxd4 looks playable; I am not sure abut axb5 18.cxb5 Nxd4 19.Nxd4 e5 20.Qxc7. With the bishop on h5 the pseudo sac does not look completely satisfactory because of Nd4-f5.
I find 21...Qd8 rather passive; what about 21...Qc5!? It seems to be Black's last chance for counterplay.
From the Johnson-Lindberg game I do not understand very much, except the last moves 40.Bh3?? Rxd6 0-1. This indicates that for me the IZ indeed is easier to grasp.
For those who are interested: there is also a game with the Elephant Gambit.
  

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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #65 - 02/09/05 at 07:45:20
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The Leningrad Dutch is an opening where it needs some time to get used to it. I play it since 3 years and NOW I am very satisfied with it. But I remember that I was quite desperate too in the beginning. You really have to work on your theory and need some experience to get a feeling for the position. But then after some time it earns fine.
Just looked at my last year in OTB: I scored 20 wins in the Leningrad, 8 draws (for some reaon I score in the Leningrad many draws, of course not agreed draws, dont know why ???) and 10 losses. 20 wins, 8 draws, 10 lost, thats a nice score with the black pieces, isnt it?
  
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #64 - 02/09/05 at 07:40:52
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By a strange coincidence, last nights' games in a local IM tournament had both an Iljin and a Leningrad, which turned out to favour the latter this time.

http://www.schackforum.se/Ahlander1.htm

Quote:
Markovich wrote

I agree with MnB that the ideas behind the IZ are less sophisticated and that therefore it is easier to learn and to play.


This I don't agree with! In my experience, black can get an awful position pretty quickly in either system if one doesn't play the toughest moves early on. If any of them is easier to learn, I'd say it's the Leningrad as the fianchetto is a more common set-up, which means you'll have some use of earlier adventures in the Modern/Grünfeld/ModernBenoni/King's Indian, which most people have dabbled with at one time or another.

I'm not sure what Brynell did wrong against Ahlander - my first reaction was to play for dxc4 and then e6-e5, but I haven't checked if this works concretely. 
If it really is that simple, why would Brynell play Bd7-e8-h5 instead, too drawish perhaps?  ???
  
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #63 - 02/07/05 at 09:05:22
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I played the Iljin-Zhenevsky for quite some time before switching to the Leningrad.  I agree with MnB that the ideas behind the IZ are less sophisticated and that therefore it is easier to learn and to play.  However, White can insist on e4 and my recollection is that Black's various gambit ideas in reaction to that are not fully sufficient.  Black is left with a weak e-pawn on the open file.  He is not completely without play, for example ...a5...c6...Na6..Nc7...b5, but White is unmistakably better.

I think that White is also somewhat better in his best lines against the Leningrad, but here Black has many more ideas for counterplay.  But it is definitely not true, as some have alleged here, that e6 is weak only in the IZ and not in the Leningrad.  It's a major problem for the Leningrad player and it remains a problem even if Black gets in ...e5. 

As White I am very happy to face the Leningrad because the weaknesses that Black inflicts upon himself are not fully compenstated by his counterplay.  I am even happier to face the IZ because Black's counterplay is so much less.  As Black I am happy to play the Leningrad because I hope outplay to my opponent in a difficult position.  But if the half point were all I wanted, I would not play 1...f5 in response to 1. d4.
  

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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #62 - 02/06/05 at 18:35:36
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Thanks very much for this, AmateurDragoneer! -- it told me everything I wanted to know.

Bjarnason--Goodger was wild stuff! ...
  
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #61 - 02/05/05 at 12:29:35
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[quote author=Michael Ayton  link=1106473239/40#58 date=1107153768]H'm ... interesting. But I'd still like to know what you guys / Kindermann think is wrong with 7 ...Qe8 8 d5 Na6 9 Rb1 (best??) Nc5, and what you think might be Black's best set-up(s) after 8 d5 a5 9 Rb1 Na6 10 a3 ...[/quote]

Kindermann basically just says that 7...Qe8 8. d5 Na6 9. Rb1 c5 is bad for black (which everyone knows by now) and doesn't mention 9...Nc5!?. Beim offers 10. Be3 as white's best move and gives 10...Nfe4 11. Nxe4 Nxe4 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Nxd4 e5 14. dxe6 Bxe6 15. Qc2 Qf7 16. Nxe6 Qxe6 17. Rfd1 a5 from Shipov-Malaniuk, 1998 and says white has an "insignificant advantage," but suggests that perhaps 16. b3!? offers better prospects for white.

As far 8. d5 a5 9. Rb1 Na6 10. a3!?, the only source I have that mentions this move is Nunn's Chess Openings (Beim and Kindermann only address 10. b3). My personal inclination would be to follow Pedersen's logic that after 8...Na6 9. Rb1 Nc5 any move other than 10. b4 allows black to slow down the pawn rush with 10...a5 so I would transpose to the line 8...Na6 9. Rb1 Nc5 10. a3 a5 with 10...Nc5!?. NCO does give a note about this line but only mentions the game Illescas-Mellado from the 1991(!) Spanish Championship which went 11. Nb5 Qd8 12. b4 axb4 13. axb4 Nce4 14. Nfd4 e5 15. dxe6 c6 16. f3 with a clear edge to white. Instead, Black could try 11...Qd7!? and now 12. Be3 Nfe4 13. Bd4 e5 14. dxe6 Nxe6 looks good for black as in Karr-Bauer from the 2004 French Championship while 12. b4 axb4 13. axb4 Nce4 14. Nfd4 c6! 15. f3 Nxg3 16. hxg3 cxb5 17. Nxb5 Qd8 18. Be3 Nh5 gave black excellent attacking prospects in Bjarnason-Goodger Port Erin 2003.
  
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #60 - 02/03/05 at 21:56:33
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The original topic was to compare the IZ with the Leningrad. Just a few points.
Starting point: 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 d6 4.Nf3.
I. After 4...g6 5.o-o Bg7 6.c4 o-o 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.b3 Black can play e5 immediately, while 4...e6 5.o-o Be7 6.c4 o-o 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.b3 it is harder to realize e6-e5.
II After 4...g6 5.o-o Bg7 6.c4 o-o it does not seem a good idea to play 7.b4, while this is dangerous against the IZ.
III After 4...g6 5.o-o Bg7 6.b3 o-o 7.Bb2 Black has not done too well, neither after e5, nor after Nc6, nor after Qe8; the latter scores relatively best with 43% for Black. After 4...e6 5.o-o Be7 6.b3 o-o 7.Bb2 Black can play for an advantage both with Nc6 and Qe8. Also Ne4 and a5 are possible.
IV I do not know the current status of the Karlsbad Variation. Against the IZ the Nh3 variations are not particularly good. Black can get easy equality with e6-e5 at once, permitting the exchange of the queens, while 7...Qe8 is the ambitious reply.
V playing Ne4 in the Leningrad does not seem to be a good idea in general; it is an important resource in the IZ.
VI The queens fianchetto hardly ever occurs in the Leningrad, while the setup b6, e6, Bb7, Be7 is rather popular, both with the d-pawn on d7 and on d6. This formation comes especially into consideration if White plays some quiet, unusual line.
VII In the Leningrad Black often plays c7-c5 or c7-c6-c5 with a White pawn on d5. In the IZ c7-c5 is usually not a good move.
VII In the Leningrad the pawn formation Wh c4, e4 has done considerably worse than in the IZ, with a White king's fianchetto. The reason might be, that in the Leningrad Black does not have the follow up Qe8-h5.
All in all I do not share the opinion, that the Leningrad is more flexible than the IZ. Due to the double fianchetto though, the IZ is more risky.
  

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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #59 - 02/01/05 at 21:03:03
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Indeed Black has done very well after 7...Qe8 8.Nd5 Nxd5 9.cxd5 Nd7! though this is not because of a quick e7-e5.
In the Jussupov-Kindermann game Black can deviate with 10...cxd6 11.Ng5 (11.Bf4 Nh5 12.Bg5 e5 13.dxe5 dxe5 14.Rad1 h6) e5 12.Nb5 Qe7 13.Qa3! h6 14.dxe5 Qxe5 15.Nxd6 hxg5 16.Nxc8 Chechova-Kobylecki,1999, Raxc8 17.Bxb7 Nc5 18.Bxc8 Rxc8 19.Bxg5 Nd5 or Nfe4. But indeed against Jussupov one might prefer the draw. Another option is to change plans with 8.Qb3 c6.
Now I understand, why Keith Hayward plays 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.o-o c5 6.d3 Nc6/o-o 7.Qe1. One of the mysteries of opening theory, is that White - with an extra tempo - has not done too well here.
Alas I cannot answer Michael Ayton's questions - I have done nothing more than just taking a glance.
  

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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #58 - 01/31/05 at 06:42:48
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H'm ... interesting. But I'd still like to know what you guys / Kindermann think is wrong with 7 ...Qe8 8 d5 Na6 9 Rb1 (best??) Nc5, and what you think might be Black's best set-up(s) after 8 d5 a5 9 Rb1 Na6 10 a3 ...
  
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