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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ? (Read 57160 times)
rousseau
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #12 - 01/23/05 at 15:24:01
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Absolutely correct, Sergej!
8.b3 is definitely the refutation of the classical Dutch.

The only plan that would make the classical Dutch interesting, has got impossible with 8.b3, black must suffer without e5.
There has been some tries to go around this, Simagin with queenside play, another idea was Ne4, but all in all the black position isnt anymore really playable. If you want to know why there are 15.000 Leningrads in your database but only 1500 classical Dutch, have a look at 8.b3.



  
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Sergej
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #11 - 01/23/05 at 15:04:07
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Especially if you want to quickly get rid of this awfully weak pawn on e6 with an e5 break, all White setups with b3 + Bb2 (and believe me, a lot of players of all levels like to play this against any Dutch) are quite unpleasant for black.
Black cant have his e5-break because of the threat Nb5 (Bb2xe5), but White easily gets his e4.
Do yourself something good and improve in the Leningrad, but dont play the I.Zhenevsky.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #10 - 01/23/05 at 14:56:39
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1) 8... Qg6, 9.e4 fxe4, 10.Nxe4 Nxe4, 11.Rxe4 Nc6 and I would prefer the White pieces, the black pawn center looks not very encouraging


Williams gives the main line as 12.Qe2 Bf6 13.Bd2 e5 14.dxe5 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 Bxe5 16.Bc3 Bxc3 17.bxc3 Bd7!? 18.Re7 Rae8 19.Bxb7 c6 Here, Williams concludes that black has almost equal chances despite the pawn less, and should be able to hold the draw.
  
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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #9 - 01/23/05 at 13:58:31
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The Iljin-Zhenevesky is much more uncomfortable for Black than the Leningrad. Perhaps you could post a game or a variation that concerns you in the Leningrad and then I could give you a more specific answer about your Qb3 or weakened kingside problems. 

Keep in mind that if White aims for a quick O-O-O or an early h4-h5 without castling, Black can often mount a queenside pawn storm or castle queenside himself. (something you usually can't do in the IZ. Overall, I find the Leningrad setup to actually be safer, more flexible, and more dynamic than the Classical Dutch. However, as with any ultra-sharp opening, you are going to lose at least 50% of your first few games before you get a good feel for the opening. Once that happens, you'll find yourself winning a very high percentage of your games with the opening. In addition, the Dutch is one of those openings where you really need a good understanding of themes and strategies, so if you do not yet have a book on the Leningrad, I would strongly recommend getting one. Since you are from Austria, I presume you can read/understand German and so I would strongly recommend Steffan Kindermann's "Leningrader System". I do not know any German and was able to gain a great amount of knowledge from the book, so I can only imagine that if you are able to read and understand most of his prose it will be of even more help to you.
  
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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #8 - 01/23/05 at 12:17:28
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In the variation 7.Nc3 Qe8, the move 8.Re1 seems to be really the most uncomfortable move for black when aiming for a quick e7-e5.
8.b3+9.Bb2 allows black nearly always e7-e5.
8.Qc2 is in this meaning not so strong because of 8...Qh5, 9.e4 e5!.

But what to do against 8.Re1 ?
  
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rousseau
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #7 - 01/23/05 at 11:44:12
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My dear chess friend, believe me, if you change the Leningrad to the classical Dutch, its like avoiding a small faux-pas (the higher KS vulnerability) for making an ever bigger faux-pas (weak e6, weak center, f-pawn missing for KS-attack).
  
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Sergej
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #6 - 01/23/05 at 11:20:34
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rousseau is right in not trusting the I.Zhenevsky Dutch.

Lets take 7.Nc3 Qe8 (at amateur level more seen then 7...a5) 8.Ne1, a very common move obviously aiming at a quick e2-e4.
Black has really no sufficient answer:

1) 8... Qg6, 9.e4 fxe4, 10.Nxe4 Nxe4, 11.Rxe4 Nc6 and I would prefer the White pieces, the black pawn center looks not very encouraging

2) 8... Ne4 and what now if White dont plays 9.Qc2 but 9.Nxe4, fxe4, 10.Nd2 d5? Again I would prefer the White pieces because of the black pawn weaknesses.

  
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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #5 - 01/23/05 at 10:30:11
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@rousseau
As far as I remember - I tried the IZ only some weeks - Black has some means in the IZ too, for example after 8.Qc2 Qh5, 9.e4 e5 and no bad position for black.
Another way: 8.Re1 Ne4 and the knight blocks the white e2-e4.

But basically you might be right that the weakness of e6 could be a major minus of the IZ in some variations.
  
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rousseau
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #4 - 01/23/05 at 09:57:22
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Because in the classical Dutch, lets say for example after 7.Nc3 Qe8,
black has the problem to first play Nbd7 and then secondly get the Be7 out of the way to break through while White is already prepared for e4. 
And another handicap: in the Leningrad you need not care about f5 if breaking through with e5 because of the g6-pawn. But in the classical Duch you need at first to overprotect the f5.

All this costs tempi And as the main question in the Dutch is who first breaks through in the center, the Leningrad is better because you save 1 or 2 tempi.
  
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rousseau
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #3 - 01/23/05 at 09:44:05
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Well, there is of course a reason for the fact that the Leningrad is 10 times more often played then the classical Dutch.

In the Leningrad black manages often to come out with the e7-e5 breakthrough before White manages e4. But in the classical Dutch usually White is the first to break through in the center with e4 and Black gets then a by far not optimal position with the hanging weak pawn on e6.
  
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Guido2
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #2 - 01/23/05 at 08:09:22
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Quote:

The reason is that I lose too many games because of weaking my king side with g6.


Thats the point. For the same reason I stopped playing the Leningrad. From the point of current theory the Leningrad is fine, a lot of GM & IM play it. But a GM or IM can afford this double-edged position. I mean, f5 already is a serious weakening of your king. But with an additional g6 you make your kingside really very, very vulnerable. The smallest mistake is your end!
The Leningrad is the most double-edged position I know. You pay a high price for your counterplay, for my personal opinion a too high one.

I would say, if you are up to date with the last theory, you can go for the Leningrad. But if you want to play an opening with an economic amount of theory and a more solid position, where you first keep the safety of your king and only then start your attack, play the IZ.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
Reply #1 - 01/23/05 at 07:03:02
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I've played the Leningrad for more than a decade now, and can't say that I'm dissatisfied Smiley

With the Leningrad you should be prepared for both series of losses and series of wins, as one's current form is highly important. As well as theoretical preparedness of course, if you have problems against a certain white set-up you really need to do some work, both looking up theory and seeing what you do wrong and why in your games.

I've begun trying out the Iljin too, to get some diversity and fresh ideas, though so far only in blitz. But just like the Leningrad it takes a long time to understand and get used to the Iljin set-up and the various plans & tactics.

Just choosing a main line is somewhat perplexing, as 7...a5 and 7...Qe8 often seem to transpose after b3, my preference so far is the latter as black can play Nbd7 with quicker development - and the point of a7-a5 after b2-b3 eludes me somewhat. Why stop b4 if white obviously doesn't want to play it? Presumably, it's a waiting move, wanting white to commit with Qc2 or Bb2/Ba3 --- there is one  independent plan after a5, i.e. Na6, c6, nc7, Rb8 and b5 - fighting for square d5 - but I'm not sure when/if this is preferable to Qe8-h5/g6...

The books Williams & Pinski seem to favour 7...Ne4 but after 8.Qc2 Nxc3 9.Qxc3 I think white should have an edge - why move Nf6 twice only to give white Qd1-c2-c3, even if black can force through e6-e5 black's position just seems a bit dry to me...

Sorry to be adding to your confusion but maybe Iljin aficionado MNb can shed some light on these matters? Smiley
  
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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Dutch: Leningrad or classical (IZ) ?
01/23/05 at 04:40:37
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The Dutch is my pet opening. 
But more and more during the last months I considered changing the Leningrad Dutch that I played the last 2 years to the classical Dutch (or Iljin-Zhenevksy).

The reason is that I lose too many games because of weaking my king side with g6. Especially if 
White plays a Qb3-setup I often lost due to my kingside-weakness when the simple Ng5 is the start of complications that often end bad for me. To me it seems that Black must be in the Leningrad more precise then for example in the Kalashnikov that is considered risky too.

Would like to hear opinions of other "Dutchies". I know of course that the classical Dutch is rare (Megabase: 1700 classical, 15.000 Leningrad!) and nearly no GM plays it but this is no reason for me not trying it.

Any Dutchies outside there that have some experience with both sides of the coin? Why you decided for either the Leningrad or the classical? And to the Leningrad players: dont you often pay the bill for the weakness of the kingside?
  
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