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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The 6.Bg5 e6 7...Nc6 variation in the Najdorf (Read 34936 times)
parisestmagique
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Re: The 6.Bg5 e6 7...Nc6 variation in the Najdorf
Reply #52 - 07/31/09 at 11:57:44
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The talented French GM must have found something against 13.Ne4 because he played this variation in this very important game, which gave him first place in Bienne.

Alekseev,Evgeny 2714 - Vachier Lagrave,M 2703  1/2-1/2
B96 GM (10) 30.07.2009

1.e4 c5 2.Cf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Cxd4 Cf6 5.Cc3 a6 6.Fg5 e6 7.f4 Cc6 8.e5 h6 9.Fh4 dxe5 10.Cxc6 Dxd1+ 11.Txd1 bxc6 12.fxe5 Cd7 13.Fg3 Tb8 14.b3 Fb4 
1/2-1/2

  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #51 - 06/15/09 at 12:36:06
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TonyRo wrote on 06/15/09 at 01:08:57:
If you update Easy Guide to the Najdorf before The Dynamic English you're going to have people tracking you down Tony!  Embarrassed

True, and it wouldn't make much sense financially as the DE book has earned 4 times as much as the Najdorf book! 

Quote:

But, 14. ... Qe7? is other mistake in his analyses: 
15. Nd5! exd5 16. exd5 Qf6 17. Re1+ and Black would not be happy with such a position.

Kind Regards, the sepulchre of 7. ... Nc6.  Wink


I've only just noticed this - isn't 15...Bxd5 16 exd5 e5 a rather obvious improvement here? Roll Eyes
No doubt Black can improve earlier too.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: The 6.Bg5 e6 7...Nc6 variation in the Najdorf
Reply #50 - 06/15/09 at 01:08:57
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If you update Easy Guide to the Najdorf before The Dynamic English you're going to have people tracking you down Tony!  Embarrassed
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The 6.Bg5 e6 7...Nc6 variation in the Najdorf
Reply #49 - 06/14/09 at 23:15:46
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Looking at the Naiditsch-Vachier Lagrave game in the June Open Sicilians update, where White (ELO 2700) plays 8 Qd3 and gets crushed, I couldn't resist digging up this old thread! Roll Eyes
Maxime, who is himself around the 2700 mark, even thought it was a dubious move!
7...Nc6 seems to be in very good shape at the moment, even White's better lines don't seem to give any advantage! Maybe it is time to update Easy Guide to the Najdorf!! Grin
  
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XtremeMate
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #48 - 12/13/06 at 04:15:35
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 12/07/05 at 18:55:17:
What '7...Nc6 project'? ???
10 Nb3 is hardly scary for Black - normally he has to expend a tempo to force this knight from the centre! With the queen on d2 instead of d3 10...b5 is normally played here, 11 Bxf6 gxf6 with a typical Rauzer position that offers White an edge, but no more than many other lines. Indeed, the most popular move here (with the queen on d2) is now 12 f5, but with the queen on d3 this is asking for ...Ne5, and as 12 Bd3 is clearly impossible, too, the queen on d3 only seems to offer disadvantages.
Anyway, I suggested at least 4 playable variations for Black in my annotations, and you haven't published the promised refutation of any of them as yet! If 7...Nc6 is so bad, why is it so difficult to demonstrate any real advantage?!


Let's agree that 10. Nb3 is innocuous. But, 10. Nf3! h6 11. Bh4!, what would you propose here?  Roll Eyes

Also, let's add other variation in his analyses:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4
Nc6 8. Qd3 7. f4 Bd7 8. Qd3 e6 9. O-O-O h6 According to GM Kosten...
10. Bh4 g5 11. Nxc6 Bxc6 12. Bg3 14... Qe7, he should be OK - the dark-squared bishop will
probably get to the long diagonal.}

But, 14. ... Qe7? is other mistake in his analyses: 
15. Nd5! exd5 16. exd5 Qf6 17. Re1+ and Black would not be happy with such a position.

Kind Regards, the sepulchre of 7. ... Nc6.  Wink






  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #47 - 12/07/05 at 18:55:17
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What '7...Nc6 project'? ???
10 Nb3 is hardly scary for Black - normally he has to expend a tempo to force this knight from the centre! With the queen on d2 instead of d3 10...b5 is normally played here, 11 Bxf6 gxf6 with a typical Rauzer position that offers White an edge, but no more than many other lines. Indeed, the most popular move here (with the queen on d2) is now 12 f5, but with the queen on d3 this is asking for ...Ne5, and as 12 Bd3 is clearly impossible, too, the queen on d3 only seems to offer disadvantages.
Anyway, I suggested at least 4 playable variations for Black in my annotations, and you haven't published the promised refutation of any of them as yet! If 7...Nc6 is so bad, why is it so difficult to demonstrate any real advantage?!
  
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Arturo Ochoa
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #46 - 11/27/05 at 00:39:56
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Quote:
But the whole sub variation is anything but critical, if Black wants he can also play 13...dxe5 14 fxe5 Nd5, say, with immediate equality - is this the best that White can manage?


I was retired for a few months. White are slight better here. However, as I had pointed out here, this was a subvariation where you had missed a simple tactical shot.

On the other hand, 10. Be2 is not too convincing either, sinc it lets the exchange of the Knight in d4. A lot better is 10. Nb3, for example:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 
e6 7. f4 Nc6 8. Qd3 Bd7 9. O-O-O Be7 10. Nb3(!) Qc7 11. Bxf6 gxf6 12. Be2 h5 13. Qh3 b5 14. f5 and White have the initiative. Again, 7. ... Nc6(?!) is useful as a surprise but not holdable as a repertoire move.

I suggest to abort the 7. ... Nc6(?!) Project......

  
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basqueknight
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #45 - 08/30/05 at 09:54:06
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Quote:
My advice to everyone here, avoid playing 6...Nc6 at all cost! Its very dangerous...
You'd be better off with the main alternatives like 6...e6, or even 6...Nbd7,. 
AGAIN I REPEAT 6...NC6?! is already REFUTED!


6.Nbd7 is bad for black. it is not played any more and is talked about in Kasparovs Najdorf DVD. The attacks are to easy to play for white. so e6 is what i recomend. if any one wants the moves jsut respond id be happy to fire up my dvd player and type em in. 

e6 is a great move and the best in the posistion. Nc6 changes the character of the game completly. Like Alumbrado said its a Rauzer. either way they are very similar in character.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #44 - 08/14/05 at 08:50:15
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But the whole sub variation is anything but critical, if Black wants he can also play 13...dxe5 14 fxe5 Nd5, say, with immediate equality - is this the best that White can manage?
  
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Arturo Ochoa
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Why the debate is still open.... Issue 1
Reply #43 - 08/05/05 at 18:55:26
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Quote:
I think 8 Qd2 is actually mistake, what do you propose after 8...h6, isn't 9 Bxf6 forced?
I am annotating a game with 8 Qd3 for the next update, Black just develops normally, and wins easily!
There are only two critical lines aginst 7...Nc6: 8 e5 and 8 Nxc6
Smiley


Analyzing the game posted by Kosten there:

"1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 
e6 7. f4 Nc6 8. Qd3 Bd7 9. O-O-O Be7 10. Be2 Qc7 11. Bf3 
Nxd4 12. Qxd4 Bc6 13. e5!?  Bxf3 14. gxf3 dxe5 15. fxe5 Bc5 16. Qa4+ Nd7 is nothing for White" according to Kosten.

The move 13. e5!? is given as a variation. However, Kosten misses a simple tactical move in this variation. Let´s see:

Kosten misses a simple tactical shot here. 14. gxf3? is a mistake, since Black is giving two pieces for a rook:
14. exf6! Bxd1 15. fxe7 Bh5 16. Qxg7 Kd7 17. Ne4 and white are better here. Would you hold the Black position?

Next weekend, I will continue providing new remarks about the Kosten´s Proposal.

Then, Black has more problems that what Kosten can see. Let's see the result of this debate.

Regards, Arturo Ochoa M.
  
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Arturo Ochoa
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Why the debate is still open.... Issue 1
Reply #42 - 08/05/05 at 18:52:43
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Quote:
I think 8 Qd2 is actually mistake, what do you propose after 8...h6, isn't 9 Bxf6 forced?
I am annotating a game with 8 Qd3 for the next update, Black just develops normally, and wins easily!
There are only two critical lines aginst 7...Nc6: 8 e5 and 8 Nxc6
Smiley


Analyzing the game posted by Kosten there:

"1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 
e6 7. f4 Nc6 8. Qd3 Bd7 9. O-O-O Be7 10. Be2 Qc7 11. Bf3 
Nxd4 12. Qxd4 Bc6 13. e5!?  Bxf3 14. gxf3 dxe5 15. fxe5 Bc5 16. Qa4+ Nd7 is nothing for White" according to Kosten.

The move 13. e5!? is given as a variation. However, Koster misses a simple tactical move in this variation. Let´s see:

Kosten misses a simple tactical shot here. 14. gxf3? is a mistake, since Black is giving two pieces for a rook:
14. exf6! Bxd1 15. fxe7 Bh5 16. Qxg7 Kd7 17. Ne4 and white are better here. Would you hold the Black position?

Next weekend, I will continue providing new remarks about the Kosten Proposal.

Then, Black has more problems that Kosten can see. Let's see the result of this debate.

Regards, Arturo Ochoa M.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #41 - 07/17/05 at 13:42:21
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I think 8 Qd2 is actually mistake, what do you propose after 8...h6, isn't 9 Bxf6 forced?
I am annotating a game with 8 Qd3 for the next update, Black just develops normally, and wins easily!
There are only two critical lines aginst 7...Nc6: 8 e5 and 8 Nxc6
Smiley
  
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Arturo Ochoa
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #40 - 07/15/05 at 10:01:39
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Quote:
"dubious Nc6?! line and the big busts that are possible to just completely crush black." - what big busts, I don't know of any?
"richter rauzer with black 1 tempo down because of playing a dubious a6" I always play the Richter-Rauzer with the 'dubious' ...a6! (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 a6 8.O-O-O h6 is probably Black's most popular line!)
"They *did* consider it as a good bust of the 7..Nc6 in the najdorf 6.Bg5" - in my database White scores 18% after 8...Bd7 9 0-0-0 so Black scores pretty well with a 'busted' position!
How about trying some less colourful expressions? Smiley

  ??? Cry
What I see after 8. Qd3 in your propose line is only surprise factor. Either Qd2 or the calm Qd3 give white a fluen game while any small mistake by the black side means the lost game. A variation when you must do 20 perfect moves, no transpositions lacks, no time looses is only conveniente for surprise purposes. Eventually, it becomes a disaster. Example, Dragons have the same problem. Black must do perfect moves to reach a draw in the best case. This is the point and I dont still see any proposal against  8. Qd3. For now, the value of 7. Nc6 is ?!.

Regards, Arturo Ochoa M.
  
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #39 - 07/12/05 at 19:09:11
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"dubious Nc6?! line and the big busts that are possible to just completely crush black." - what big busts, I don't know of any?
"richter rauzer with black 1 tempo down because of playing a dubious a6" I always play the Richter-Rauzer with the 'dubious' ...a6! (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 a6 8.O-O-O h6 is probably Black's most popular line!)
"They *did* consider it as a good bust of the 7..Nc6 in the najdorf 6.Bg5" - in my database White scores 18% after 8...Bd7 9 0-0-0 so Black scores pretty well with a 'busted' position!
How about trying some less colourful expressions? Smiley
  
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FM Vincent Diepeveen
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Re: The 6.Bg5 Nc6 variation in the najdorf
Reply #38 - 07/01/05 at 14:47:51
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One small note on the Shredder-Diep game:

Shredder was out of book move 12. So it is obvious they have prepared the 8.Qd3 line until move 11 for sure.

So the 8.Qd3 was not played by shredder itself, but from their prepared openingsbook. They *did* consider it as a good bust of the 7..Nc6 in the najdorf 6.Bg5

Today GM's, most of them consider 6.Bg5 and then poisened pawn as winning for black, or at least =. However, i am not so sure about that last. The practical chances for white are *huge* in this opening.

  
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