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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Right opening for me against d4? (Read 12834 times)
David I Bronstein
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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #12 - 02/23/05 at 23:00:09
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The pawn formation c6-d5-e6 is considered to be more reliable. But this opinion is not so well founded and arose not so much in connexion with the objective advantages of such a setup, as well under the impression of several brilliant victories, in this variation achieved by worldchampion M.Botvinnik on the strongest players of several countries.
It is hardly to believe, that a setup, in which Black the development of the queen's wing postpones by purpose, because of strong, but always to repel mating threats on the king's wing and in which Black, to avoid a quick opening of the centre with the move e2-e4, is forced to weaken several important squares - it is hard to believe that such a setup is only preferable to the less obliging positional plan with the move d7-d6, because White can easily advance the e-pawn to e4.
Concerning the opening of files, this is a double-edged matter. It is not always clear, whom will favour it. For instance several games of a zealous advocate of this variation, of A.Iljin-Zjenevsky, are known, who just waited until his partner with the move e4 opened the e-file, after which he immediately passed on to the simultaneous opening of the f-file and, after he supplementary played e6-e5, freed Bc8. After this only few succeeded in saving themselves.
  
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lnn2
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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #11 - 02/23/05 at 19:11:26
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Agreed, but I'd be interested to see statistics on the number of games that went 1 d4 d6 2 e4 versus 2 c4, 2 Nf3, 2 Bg5, etc.  My gut instinct is that the majority of players who open with 1 d4 will be reluctant to transpose into a king's pawn opening.  And if they did, how booked up would they be on the Pirc.  


Its not so surprising that many 1. d4 players are booked up on the Pirc. Many White players find 1.d4 d6 2. c4 e5 irritating. They could go for 1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 Bg4!? but not all White players like to have Nf3 in case Black tries the KID.  1.d4 d6 2. c4 f5 is also a dutch move order that not all 1. d4 players like to enter into. Learning the pirc gives White a flexible weapon against all the modern-type move orders. my current tastes is for 3. f3, the Classical (davies' dynamic reti has a nice solution), or even the "finnish refutation of the pirc" featured in J/T.

Upon some reflection me thinks the stonewall dutch is the best choice for the original poster.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #10 - 02/23/05 at 14:58:06
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Problem with J/T's "explosive" 1...d6 is the transposition to the pirc. i do not think the original poster wants to be hacked with the austrian!


Agreed, but I'd be interested to see statistics on the number of games that went 1 d4 d6 2 e4 versus 2 c4, 2 Nf3, 2 Bg5, etc.  My gut instinct is that the majority of players who open with 1 d4 will be reluctant to transpose into a king's pawn opening.  And if they did, how booked up would they be on the Pirc.   

Yes: Black should definitely think twice here, but I don't think the Pirc's so unplayable that it puts 1 ... d6 in such a cloud.  As it happens, I'm finding myself on the Black side of an Austrian Attack in a correspondence thematic tournament that began 1 f4 d6 2 e4.  Will make sure to go over the relevant posts in 1 e4 ... threads.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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HgMan
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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #9 - 02/23/05 at 14:50:18
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Well, 1.Nf3 can also be met by 1...d6 of course, but I'm not sure what to do against 1.Bg5?!!? ... I think I would be inclined to summon the arbiter ...


Well, I thought 1 Bxf7+ was a bit of a stretch, but I do like to encourage creative play.   

I did, however, mean 1 d4 d6 2 Nf3 or 2 Bg5.

Apologies, and I'll be awaiting the lightning bolt that will no doubt strike me on my walk home this evening.
  

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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #8 - 02/23/05 at 06:43:48
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This reminds me...Chepukaitis said 1. Bg5 would have been his favourite move had the rules allowed it.

Problem with J/T's "explosive" 1...d6 is the transposition to the pirc. i do not think the original poster wants to be hacked with the austrian!
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #7 - 02/23/05 at 04:09:09
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Well, 1.Nf3 can also be met by 1...d6 of course, but I'm not sure what to do against 1.Bg5?!!? ... I think I would be inclined to summon the arbiter ...
  

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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #6 - 02/22/05 at 23:56:54
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What about Yrola & Tella's recommended repertoire against 1 d4?

1 d4 d6 2 c4 e5 3 Nf3 e4 4 Ng5 f5 5 Nc3 Be7 6 Nh3 Nf6.

I suspect the bigger problem against 1 d4 is what to do after 1 Nf3/1 Bg5/etc.
  

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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #5 - 02/22/05 at 23:36:51
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Everyman is coming out with a starting-out book on "miscellaneous" benoni systems (by raetsky/cheverik iirc). it may be worth a look. truth is, at an advanced level, most White players will know what business you are up to on the kingside (especially the positional sorts who play 1.d4 in the first place, and who love closed positions). 

In response to the original question, the king's indian sounds like the perfect choice, but yes white can spoil the fun. Aside from the tromp (perfect against KID types who play 2...g6), there is also smyslov 5. Bg5, samisch, 5. Bd3, 4 pawns etc, usually systems without early Nf3. As black you cannot always hope to reach a position you like. 

About the dutch, the Stonewall is worth considering if you absolutely want a closed centre. Unlike the leningrad/classical IZ it is not so easy for White to blow open the centre..  Undecided
  
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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #4 - 02/22/05 at 22:01:32
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I suppose the odds of a successful kingside attack against a strong and prepared player are slim with the Czech Benoni, but many years ago against average club players (ok, maybe we were below average) I had quite a few nice attacks.  After the usual ...Ne8, ...g6, ...Ng7 and eventually ...f5-4 it was of course quite similiar to the KID type attacks.  Of course I don't think that plan is always feasible, especially against some of White's better options.

Actually, I liked it so much I started playing a horrible opening against 1.e4 to try and get it.  1.e4 a6 2.d4 c5? 3.d5 (3.dxc4 is probably strongest.  Of course a lot of moves are pretty good here including 3.d5, but I had 2 wins and a draw with this before I decided maybe I should play a real opening.) 3...e5.
  
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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #3 - 02/22/05 at 21:17:18
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It is undeniable, that there are some similarities between the Grand Prix Attack and the Iljin-Zjenevsky. But I have to admit, that in the IZ the centre can become open every moment, if White plays e4.

If Alumbrado means the development to e7, I think the Czech Benoni not one of his best advises. Black's prospects of a kingside attack are almost non existing. But quite a time before I knew what's best for me, I have played 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6 a few times - sometimes with e7-e5 to follow. And I do think, that 3...e5 4.Nc3 d6 and 5...g6 is an underistimated defense. Play is similar to the KI and if Black can play f7-f5 - which is not always easy - he can think of an attack on the kingside indeed.
I do not know of recent books - I have Stoljar/Kondratjev's Alt-Benoni Verteidigung of 1985.
  

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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #2 - 02/22/05 at 18:45:28
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Let's say Grand marnier decides to go with the Czech Benoni (or for that matter anyone).  Is there a book you would recommend to learn this opening?
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #1 - 02/22/05 at 10:33:29
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I think you should play the King's Indian with Black (or perhaps a Czech Benoni, an opening which increasingly interests me).  I have no doubt others (you know who you are ...) will try to persuade you that the Dutch is the way forward but you are much more likely (although of course there are no guarantees) to get the closed centre you desire with the KID.

Against 1.e4, you have more of a problem, for sure.  I don't know quite what to suggest there.
  

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Grand marnier
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Right opening for me against d4?
02/22/05 at 09:06:49
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Hello,
I do with the white pieces feel well with a setup that include e4+Nc3+d3+f4 (Vienna Game, Grand-Prix-attaque, King Gambite). I dont fight for center control, I better close the center and attack kingside. 
I score also very good with it (internet blitz: 75 wins, 30 loss).

I asked in another thread in e4-forum what to play against e4 with the black pieces to reach some similar setup. Might not exist, I believe. 

Anything against d4, what could be similar? I considered the Dutch, but there is a main difference. With Vienna Game, Grandprix-attaque I have a rather safe position for the king and then start the attack. Its different in the Dutch, isnt it?
  
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