Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Right opening for me against d4? (Read 12810 times)
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #27 - 03/03/05 at 12:30:56
Post Tools
Quote:
Why insist on one style or another? Because we amateurs have the luxury of not playing what is objectively best, but what we think is the most fun.


Undoubtedly, but surely the greatest source of enjoyment in chess is in discovering and appreciating the diversity of the game.  We needn't all strive to be masters, but surely by expanding our scope of the game we must naturally expand our enjoyment of the game.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #26 - 03/03/05 at 12:05:56
Post Tools
Quote:
thanks for advises

@Markovich
I am somehow amazed that you recommend the Dutch Stonewall, as I read in another thread that you are engaged in teaching chess. Isnt the Stonewall exactly what teachers are warning their kids to leave hands from? Maybe I am wrong but I always thought so. Because it is not very flexible and has clear positional disadvantages and if White can exchange the strong black bishop, then blacks position seems lack of kingside attack chances and rather unattractive?



I responded to this in the "Black/d4 with least theory" thread, q.v..
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Grand Marnier
Guest


Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #25 - 03/03/05 at 09:44:56
Post Tools
thanks for advises

@Markovich
I am somehow amazed that you recommend the Dutch Stonewall, as I read in another thread that you are engaged in teaching chess. Isnt the Stonewall exactly what teachers are warning their kids to leave hands from? Maybe I am wrong but I always thought so. Because it is not very flexible and has clear positional disadvantages and if White can exchange the strong black bishop, then blacks position seems lack of kingside attack chances and rather unattractive?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #24 - 03/03/05 at 08:05:06
Post Tools
Quote:
Hello,
I do with the white pieces feel well with a setup that include e4+Nc3+d3+f4 (Vienna Game, Grand-Prix-attaque, King Gambite). I dont fight for center control, I better close the center and attack kingside. 
I score also very good with it (internet blitz: 75 wins, 30 loss).

I asked in another thread in e4-forum what to play against e4 with the black pieces to reach some similar setup. Might not exist, I believe. 

Anything against d4, what could be similar? I considered the Dutch, but there is a main difference. With Vienna Game, Grandprix-attaque I have a rather safe position for the king and then start the attack. Its different in the Dutch, isnt it?


I think the Stonewall Dutch best fits your bill.  Black's position is solid, and he has plenty of scope for kingside attack.  The Stonewall used to be played with ONLY kingside attack in mind, but nowadays the stronger Black players try to be much more flexible.   

White can deviate early with 2. Bg5 or 2. Nc3 or 2. e4, but these systems, while they should be taken seriously, are not on the critical path.

  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #23 - 03/02/05 at 22:52:11
Post Tools
I think Willempie's remark on the solid/aggressive issue is a good answer to the initial question. I fully agree.
Why insist on one style or another? Because we amateurs have the luxury of not playing what is objectively best, but what we think is the most fun.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #22 - 03/02/05 at 12:35:04
Post Tools
I wonder if we shouldn't take issue a little with the original question.

While closing the center and loading up the heavy guns for a kingside attack can be a lot of fun, it can rather harm a player's chessic progress if it is the loan tool in the bag.  The Dutch is clearly the most obvious way of starting a kingside attack as Black against 1 d4, but its problems have also been noted.  Why insist on this style all the time?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #21 - 03/02/05 at 10:42:40
Post Tools
Quote:
"the dutch is a laugh for own king's safety."
The most played setup against the Dutch starts with g2-g3 somewhere. This is a good move of course, but hardly means to take benefit of the supposed unsafe Black king. The quoted statements is bullocks.

And what is wrong with the king's safety in the KI or the Closed Benoni? Still Black can initiate a kingside attack by preparing f7-f5. One should not get scared off too early by the statistics mentioned by Dutch-Kalasnikov.

I probably overstated things a bit Wink, but with the dutch the variations with an early Qb3 or an early h4 against the Leningrad are not my cup of tea for a safe kingside position. The KI imo has the disadvantage of allowing a couple of threatening white systems like the bayonet and 4-pawns, while the Sämisch is though not very popular quite nasty to meet without thorough preparation.
I agree that the closed benoni (I assume you mean the setup c5 d6 e5) is quite safe and have played it on occasion myself, but chances for activity are quite limited if white doesnt exchange pieces and works with a "limiting scope" strategy with moves like h3. I have always looked at it as a slighty worse version of the Hübner setup in the Nimzo.
Main problem of course is to recommend something both safe and potentially agressive against d4. In my experience it is either or. Safe options are QGD, Nimzo/QID, the czech benoni. While more agressives are KID/Grünfeld (I use those myself in combination), dutch, Benko and various other systems. With the safe options the problem is that often it takes time to be able to go agressive, while the agressive ones often allow white to get agressive as well. So my personal recommendation would be to choose something safe and look for the more active variations there.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #20 - 03/01/05 at 22:10:37
Post Tools
"the dutch is a laugh for own king's safety."
The most played setup against the Dutch starts with g2-g3 somewhere. This is a good move of course, but hardly means to take benefit of the supposed unsafe Black king. The quoted statements is bullocks.

And what is wrong with the king's safety in the KI or the Closed Benoni? Still Black can initiate a kingside attack by preparing f7-f5. One should not get scared off too early by the statistics mentioned by Dutch-Kalasnikov.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #19 - 02/28/05 at 21:50:30
Post Tools
Did anybody really read his question?
He wants a  safe position and then go for the king. All the indian defenses dont do that and the dutch is a laugh for own king's safety.
The only way is d5 e6 c6 and then hope you get something going.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #18 - 02/28/05 at 17:47:49
Post Tools
Quote:

I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Yrola and Tella's repertoire consisted of something other than the Pirc against 1. e4 d6 2. d4


I'm afraid you are mistaken.  The repertoire does consist of the Pirc--and a rather unconvincing one at that.  The book's recommendations are excellent against 1 d4, however.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Patrick McCartney
Guest


Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #17 - 02/28/05 at 16:23:59
Post Tools
Another suggestion, if you want a closed position with a kingside attack....go for the English Defense:  1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.e4 Bb7 and now if 4.Bd3 (the main line), instead of the wide open, wild 4...f5, play the modern main line, 4...Nc6, in which Black typlically follows up with Nb4 and Nxd3, closes up the center, and then later on decides what to do with his king.  Typically, if he goes Queenside, he does a pawnstorm on the kingside.  Otherwise, if he goes kingside, often it's timing an ...f5 move, kinda like in the King's Indian.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
AmateurDragoneer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 387
Location: NY
Joined: 06/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #16 - 02/28/05 at 16:18:03
Post Tools
Quote:
This reminds me...Chepukaitis said 1. Bg5 would have been his favourite move had the rules allowed it.

Problem with J/T's "explosive" 1...d6 is the transposition to the pirc. i do not think the original poster wants to be hacked with the austrian!


I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Yrola and Tella's repertoire consisted of something other than the Pirc against 1. e4 d6 2. d4
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #15 - 02/28/05 at 12:15:40
Post Tools
Black really can't insist on a closed game no matter what he does.  Against the King's Indian, which I agree is a good choice for players wanting to play a closed position with king attack, White has the 4 Pawns Attack.  Even in the Classical KID, White can play 7. Be3 instead of 7. 0-0 and the position is unlikely to lock up.

After 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 c5, White can just play 3. Nf3, which typically results in fluid, semi-open positions, the theory of which is part of the Symmetrical English.  Further, I would assert that White does not compromise his += birthright by doing so.  This is a really good one to pull out against Benko fanatics.

  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dutch-Kalashnikov
Full Member
***
Offline


Ambivalent? Well, yes
and no.

Posts: 156
Location: Austria
Joined: 11/27/04
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #14 - 02/25/05 at 02:58:33
Post Tools
Quote:
(or perhaps a Czech Benoni, an opening which increasingly interests me)


This makes me now really curious to know why a strong player like alumbrado should be interested in the Old Benoni? ??? 

I also liked the position when I first saw it and played around with it in quick games on the internet, but then put it aside, as at first I was told it is clearly refuted, and as second - if you have a look at databases you quickly find out that nearly all variations score dramatically bad for black, something like 70 % white / 30 % black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Right opening for me against d4?
Reply #13 - 02/24/05 at 04:57:05
Post Tools
Why not play a system based on 1...d5 and 2 ...e6 followed by c6 or c5 depending if white goes for c4 or not? The centre is quite static, development quite smooth and if you like the positions the Caro-Kann and especially the french might appeal against 1e4. It maybe a bit passive, but at least you dont have to worry about getting blown away, because you didnt keep up with theory.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo