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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch (Read 47445 times)
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #25 - 05/19/05 at 17:34:46
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I'm going to buy this book on the Dutch and give it a go. For what it's worth, I intend to play the move order 1d4 e6 and only then enter a Dutch, and in response to some of the comments here about that move order I will just mention that if White plays 2e4 Black doesn't have to play a French - I can't stand the French and am happier playing 2...c5 angling for my main defence to e4, the Taimanov Sicilian. Not sure exactly what this is called (2...c5 here) - think it may be the 'Franco-Sicilian'? Anyway, in the past when I experimented with the Dutch Stonewall I played this way and didn't find it problematic even when I didn't get a real Sicilian out of it. So hopefully I'll be able to find a Dutch I really like (Stonewall started off well but most of my games went about 20 or so moves of excitement followed by a gradual sinking feeling as White equalised and my attack was found wanting.....then it was often a battle to hang on for the draw).  I really want to like the Classical Dutch - is McDonald's book a better primer on this variation than Williams', or should I go straight for the latter?  Thanks!
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #24 - 05/18/05 at 21:03:11
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Much thanks Alias  Grin

I think you clarified things quite nicely for the perpetually confused HG and the Demigod MNb. 

Nothing left for me to say.

Cheers

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #23 - 05/18/05 at 11:58:09
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1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 is usually played by people who likes the main line dutch (e6-systems) but dislike black's side of the sidelines at move 2 (2.e4, 2.Nc3, 2.Bg5). Of course they also have to be prepared to play the french.

I think that sometimes saving time by using specific move orders can be a way to paint yourself into a corner. 

Let's say you don't want to play the french anymore, then you also have to think what to play against 1.d4 since 1...e6 won't do.

When I started studying the dutch (Leningrad) I was a bit worried about white's choices at move 2. Now, I'm more worried about the mainlines.
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #22 - 05/18/05 at 06:25:30
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This was my question, but apparently I'm too uptight to ask it.
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #21 - 05/18/05 at 05:48:01
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May we shoot the messenger, if his message is unclear? Of course I am only a chess moron and English is not my native language, but maybe TopNotch can explain why 1.d4 e6 2.c4/2.Nf3 f5 is not a Dutch proper?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #20 - 05/17/05 at 21:20:46
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It was just a joke HG, lighten up dude, let your hair down.  Grin

I wanted to emphasise that only someone that actually plays the Dutch proper, that is, 1.d4 f5 can really testify as to how dangerous the sidelines are or are not.

An equal sign in a book is of little comfort when you have to sweat it out over the board. I can testify to that,
and when it comes down to Theory and Practice. Practice wins every time.

Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.

Love you all  Kiss

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #19 - 05/17/05 at 19:40:33
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What's cowardly about 1 ... e6 ?   ???

I didn't realize that move orders made chess players cowardly.  Flexibility is cowardly?  I just don't get it.
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #18 - 05/17/05 at 19:08:19
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Yeah, easy for you to say that Mnb since you begin your games with the cowardly 1d4 e6?!  Grin

So for you to say that Black need only worry about the the mainlines in the Dutch is rather comical and unconvincing. 

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #17 - 05/17/05 at 16:27:33
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If Black does not mind the French or the Pirc, 1.d4 e6 or 1.d4 d6 and 2...f5 are worth considering.

I play the Iljin-Zjenevsky against 1.b3, 1.c3, 1.c4, 1.d3, 1.d4, 1.e3, 1.g3 and 1.Nf3. White has some independent possibilties. But it is my strong opinion that Black only should worry about the main lines when playing the Dutch.
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #16 - 05/17/05 at 14:08:22
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Quote:
I have checked out both 2.Nc3 and 2.Bg5 and nothing I have seen in print has convinced me that black can fully equalise against either of these 'Sidelines'. 


Actually, I'd consider 2.Nc3 a main line in it's own right nowadays (though with some transpositional problems), while 2.Bg5 feels like an inferior version of 2.Nc3 - at least to me...
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #15 - 05/17/05 at 13:58:06
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May be this has been asked before, but can the Dutch be employed against 1.Nf3 and 1.c4 ?

I am not so convinced of Beim's treatment and the other books in the dutch I have (Bellin, Ehlvest (a joke), Aagaard (may be the editing, but I don't like it) and one in Spanish by the la Riva) don't care to even touch upon this theme.

In fact I have played both the KID and Slav/Semi-slav to cater for the inability to do so with the Grunfeld...

Thanks for any help.

P.S.: I bought Starting out today. It looks fine, but after reading some more balanced comments here... we'll see
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #14 - 05/17/05 at 12:33:03
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I have checked out both 2.Nc3 and 2.Bg5 and nothing I have seen in print has convinced me that black can fully equalise against either of these 'Sidelines'. 

Don't get me wrong, I love the Dutch in principle, but its just that its quite a difficult system to play against strong players.

McDonald's guidline is interesting if not a bit simplistic as I am a KID player who would rather play the Classical Dutch than the Leningrad. Although I do follow Neil's line of thinking, as I did have the Lenigrad Dutch in my repertoire for a couple of years, but just grew tired of having to be extraordinarily prepared to survive virtually against everything.

In the Dutch danger lies around every corner, but if anyone is interested, IM Steffen Pederson did a really nice repertoire book on it sometime back in which he reccomends the Leningrad. Pederson's book might prove a good supplement to Beim and Kindermann's recent stuff.

Until next time 'Pass the Dutchie on the left hand side'

I hope some of you recognised those lyrics from the band 'Musical Youth'

After all man cannot live by chess alone, though some try  Wink

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #13 - 05/17/05 at 04:59:49
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I think McDonald gives a good rule of thumb about which system to adopt, i.e. if you like black in the QGD -> Stonewall if you like the Nimzo Indian -> Ilyin Zhenevsky and if you like the King's Indian -> The Leningrad

Indeed, the sidelines can be quite dangerous as noted by TN, but usually once one checked them out, there's usually a good reason why they're just sidelines!
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #12 - 05/17/05 at 01:13:40
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I have played the Dutch from time to time, and the main problem I have found with it is that the Side lines are often just as dangerous as the mainlines, if not more so. Grin

However if you must play the Dutch as black, then I think the Cassical/Iljin-Zjenevsky currently offers the best chances. The games to study here are those of IM Simon Williams, who to my mind is the World's leading exponent of this variation.

Regards

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #11 - 05/17/05 at 01:02:32
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Hi,
I own Pedersen (The Dutch for the attacking player),
Beim (Understanding the Leningrad Dutch) and Kindermann (Leningrader System, german version,but there is an english version available now).

Therefore I was sceptical about the benefits of McDonalds book, but I think he makes a good job to introduce the opening. I played throught all Leningrader games, and I got some new ideas.
McDonalds book is good as an introduction and is enought to start playing the opening. If you like playing the lines, then you need a more detailed book.
Kindermann's book is a good choice.

Does anyone know a good source fpr 7....Sc6 variations ?
  
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